Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[DeanoAustin]

If we played a stronger team there was a decent chance (not certain) that we wouldn't have got into the lottery situation.

Undoubtedly true. And, on the balance of things, Ange probably could have done better. But this isn’t an all or nothing argument. He isn’t a genius for winning and a buffoon for losing. He arguably got something slightly wrong. That’s not a reason to cast any sort of judgement on him like a couple of posters here and supporters elsewhere have done.

 

[afsoc4life]

Are we really blaming Ange for this? 4 games into a season and he gives people chances to prove themselves. We are blaming him for doing so?

 

[DeanoAustin]

We don't actually know how many volunteered.
If it was the 5, fair enough. And I would never criticise Sanchez for taking one.
Stepping up to take one, doesn't prove you have a better mentality, and sometimes it's up to an outsider to gauge that.
Out of the ten....none of us would choose Sanchez. And that's born out of watching him for 7 years. Despite what you say Ange doesn't have that history.

I'm probably more disappointed with Fraser, he had a very good game, then went all Peter Shilton for the spot kicks

I was disappointed with Forster in the shoot out but he had a good game and the penalties aren’t as easy as they look. Those lads are waiting for him to move before they place the ball. So if he just stands up, as has been suggested, they put the penalty further to the side. I find it hard to get too critical of keepers in a shoot out.

 

[NoLimits01]

Are we really blaming Ange for this? 4 games into a season and he gives people chances to prove themselves. We are blaming him for doing so?

Amazingly it does seem like a few people are.

 

[Grays_1890]

Undoubtedly true. And, on the balance of things, Ange probably could have done better. But this isn’t an all or nothing argument. He isn’t a genius for winning and a buffoon for losing. He arguably got something slightly wrong. That’s not a reason to cast any sort of judgement on him like a couple of posters here and supporters elsewhere have done.

Absolutely this

I have slept on it and read his comments and its hard to really go in hard on him against his rational, although I think he got the sheer volume wrong. At the end of the day even in a 25 man squad he is going to be left with 14 players he needs to find out more about, play, rely on, keep fit, keep motivated etc, the whole what does he prioritise debate comes weighted under Spurs history but you can only take his words for why he did what he did last night, not sure its fair to hammer in under the weight of that history.

Its disappointing, absolutely, am I personally willing to rip up the the good work done so far and allow a cloud to form round the manager....no

 

[glasgowspur]

Are we really blaming Ange for this? 4 games into a season and he gives people chances to prove themselves. We are blaming him for doing so?

Ultimately he makes the choices and the buck stop with him.
I'm not blaming ange, sure that's a weight off his mind, and if others are he does not strike me as the type that will let that bother him.
He will be as annoyed and disappointed as we are because he wants to win, we might not know why but I'm confident he had his reasons for doing what he did and knew the risks.
All last night will have done is hurry things along, shame it came at the expense of exiting the cup but it is what it is.

 

[MKSpur]

I was disappointed with Forster in the shoot out but he had a good game and the penalties aren’t as easy as they look. Those lads are waiting for him to move before they place the ball. So if he just stands up, as has been suggested, they put the penalty further to the side. I find it hard to get too critical of keepers in a shoot out.

Also going first and facing their home end meant less pressure on their players. Think keepers need to feign going one way and then reverse it for the takers who try and wait. He actually got closest to the one that went top corner!

 

[DeanoAustin]

Also going first and facing their home end meant less pressure on their players. Think keepers need to feign going one way and then reverse it for the takers who try and wait. He actually got closest to the one that went top corner!

Yeah I’d agree with that and think you’ll see keepers trying that feign regularly in the not too distant future.

 

[DubSpur]

Undoubtedly true. And, on the balance of things, Ange probably could have done better. But this isn’t an all or nothing argument. He isn’t a genius for winning and a buffoon for losing. He arguably got something slightly wrong. That’s not a reason to cast any sort of judgement on him like a couple of posters here and supporters elsewhere have done.

Of course not. As I've said elsewhere he's done an excellent job in the couple of months he's been here to turn around the style. He takes credit for the start but also has to shoulder the blame for things that go wrong like last night.
It's not going to be all smooth sailing and there will be bumps along the way and last night was one of those. Hopefully just a small one (even if it annoyed me) and it will be forgotten with a convincing win at the weekend.

 

[harr1984]

Of course not. As I've said elsewhere he's done an excellent job in the couple of months he's been here to turn around the style. He takes credit for the start but also has to shoulder the blame for things that go wrong like last night.
It's not going to be all smooth sailing and there will be bumps along the way and last night was one of those. Hopefully just a small one (even if it annoyed me) and it will be forgotten with a convincing win at the weekend.

Absolutely agree, and this is what concerns me is that it will get all Poch time on here just because we have a more likeable manager again - You would end up getting lynched on here for any type of criticism of Poch, even if it was totally fair and valid. Just because you criticise the actions of the manager doesn't mean you are not happy with the job he is doing, or the direction of the team.

Ange like Poch will make his mistakes and it's ok to be critical of them otherwise this place is going to be fudging boring if we can only come on here to pat players and managers on the back during the good times and not discuss any shortcomings....

 

[Finney Is Back]

It was a low point at Spurs when we had a linesman as our manager.

Yes but not quite as low as when we had AVB

 

[papaspur]

Of all the benched players, who would you guys have started? Vicario for me is the one that sticks out in retrospect. I get why Ange put FF on and he wasn't bad by any means, we've got to get our main keeper minutes.

My personal list of players I agreed with benching:

• Son
• Bissouma
• Maddison
• Romero
• Porro

Some of these players are coming back from long injuries or are injury prone.
Deki is 50-50 for me, don't really disagree with this choice. Udogie is also 50-50 but I would've played him if he was fit. On the other side, I agree with giving Royal the start as he should be more than capable.

One big problem here is that we had all of our captains on the bench, but in spite of that, we did still have experienced players on the pitch like Davies and PEH.
I would've started Sarr since he's young and shows more attacking nous than Skipp or PEH.

On top of that, some of the players didn't follow instructions. A lot of them held onto the ball for too long instead of passing it quickly, or when passes did happen, they were to Sanchez, VdV or FF.
GLC was pressing like Maddison does, roaming around trying to create pressure. The other forwards were pressing as well I thought. I mentioned in the OMT that I didn't think our midfield was doing the job when it came to winning the ball back. In tense situations when trying to transition from deep in our own half, we'd just hoof it up or out of play. It wasn't composed and I think that's what Bissoumda, Maddison, and even Romero excel at. They can be more composed on the ball and actually pass it well.
Overall, I thought our link from defense to midfield, to attack was disjointed, so even though we had a lot of possession, it wasn't very meaningful and it was reminiscent of how Conte wanted us to play.

 

[DubSpur]

Of all the benched players, who would you guys have started? Vicario for me is the one that sticks out in retrospect. I get why Ange put FF on and he wasn't bad by any means, we've got to get our main keeper minutes.

My personal list of players I agreed with benching:

• Son
• Bissouma
• Maddison
• Romero
• Porro

Some of these players are coming back from long injuries or are injury prone.
Deki is 50-50 for me, don't really disagree with this choice. Udogie is also 50-50 but I would've played him if he was fit. On the other side, I agree with giving Royal the start as he should be more than capable.

One big problem here is that we had all of our captains on the bench, but in spite of that, we did still have experienced players on the pitch like Davies and PEH.
I would've started Sarr since he's young and shows more attacking nous than Skipp or PEH.

On top of that, some of the players didn't follow instructions. A lot of them held onto the ball for too long instead of passing it quickly, or when passes did happen, they were to Sanchez, VdV or FF.
GLC was pressing like Maddison does, roaming around trying to create pressure. The other forwards were pressing as well I thought. I mentioned in the OMT that I didn't think our midfield was doing the job when it came to winning the ball back. In tense situations when trying to transition from deep in our own half, we'd just hoof it up or out of play. It wasn't composed and I think that's what Bissoumda, Maddison, and even Romero excel at. They can be more composed on the ball and actually pass it well.
Overall, I thought our link from defense to midfield, to attack was disjointed, so even though we had a lot of possession, it wasn't very meaningful and it was reminiscent of how Conte wanted us to play.

I've no prob with the keeper being changed.

It wasn't individuals being replaced it was the amount of replacements and it left no balance in the team e.g. only one of Skipp and PEH should've started alongside either Bissouma or Sarr. Udogie seems to have a knock so I would've rested him and stuck with Porro. Royal and Davies are too slow and not comfortable enough on the ball to play in the centre in possession. Davies and Porro would've been a better balance.

Son, Richy and Kulu aren't exactly setting the world alight so I would've played them upfront and let them get more used to the system.

 

[yiddo37]

Forster should have done this

 

[Lilbaz]

Of all the benched players, who would you guys have started? Vicario for me is the one that sticks out in retrospect. I get why Ange put FF on and he wasn't bad by any means, we've got to get our main keeper minutes.

My personal list of players I agreed with benching:

• Son
• Bissouma
• Maddison
• Romero
• Porro

Some of these players are coming back from long injuries or are injury prone.
Deki is 50-50 for me, don't really disagree with this choice. Udogie is also 50-50 but I would've played him if he was fit. On the other side, I agree with giving Royal the start as he should be more than capable.

One big problem here is that we had all of our captains on the bench, but in spite of that, we did still have experienced players on the pitch like Davies and PEH.
I would've started Sarr since he's young and shows more attacking nous than Skipp or PEH.

On top of that, some of the players didn't follow instructions. A lot of them held onto the ball for too long instead of passing it quickly, or when passes did happen, they were to Sanchez, VdV or FF.
GLC was pressing like Maddison does, roaming around trying to create pressure. The other forwards were pressing as well I thought. I mentioned in the OMT that I didn't think our midfield was doing the job when it came to winning the ball back. In tense situations when trying to transition from deep in our own half, we'd just hoof it up or out of play. It wasn't composed and I think that's what Bissoumda, Maddison, and even Romero excel at. They can be more composed on the ball and actually pass it well.
Overall, I thought our link from defense to midfield, to attack was disjointed, so even though we had a lot of possession, it wasn't very meaningful and it was reminiscent of how Conte wanted us to play.

Udogie went downlast game. Can see him being rested.

 

[Robspur12]

Absolutely agree, and this is what concerns me is that it will get all Poch time on here just because we have a more likeable manager again - You would end up getting lynched on here for any type of criticism of Poch, even if it was totally fair and valid. Just because you criticise the actions of the manager doesn't mean you are not happy with the job he is doing, or the direction of the team.

Ange like Poch will make his mistakes and it's ok to be critical of them otherwise this place is going to be fudging boring if we can only come on here to pat players and managers on the back during the good times and not discuss any shortcomings....

Totally agree. I really like Ange already but yesterday was a fudge up and I am really disappointed and must admit a little surprised by him. Really thought we might go for this trophy as we did under Ramos, Harry and Poch in his 1st season. Hope he doesn't treat the FA cup with such contempt.
9 changes this early in the season is unnecessary imho. No point then trying to defend it with "I need to give everyone an opportunity!" If you rip out the heart of the team that is playing well you are going to struggle, mainly because the new team hasn't worked together enough to develop any fluency

I think criticism is always ok. But sometimes the criticism in itself isn't fair and isn't valid and as it is the right of the person to make that criticism, it should be ok to also call it out.

 

[Mrs Vert]

We don't actually know how many volunteered.
If it was the 5, fair enough. And I would never criticise Sanchez for taking one.
Stepping up to take one, doesn't prove you have a better mentality, and sometimes it's up to an outsider to gauge that.
Out of the ten....none of us would choose Sanchez. And that's born out of watching him for 7 years. Despite what you say Ange doesn't have that history.

I'm probably more disappointed with Fraser, he had a very good game, then went all Peter Shilton for the spot kicks

And its that which is frustrating. As half these players are still bloody here and we have witness every manager seeing what they cant do. Mansger gets sacked and the cycle begins.
This window dont like we are gonna be shifting people again. I know its not my cash but honestly we just have to take a hit on some. Nobody wants them!!

 

[metalgear]

If this is true, it was by very fine margins. The danger here is saying “Ange is to blame totally, this is a black mark.”

We lost on pens. Away. To a good PL team.

Not saying you’re doing it, I can’t tell from your post, but making definitive or absolute judgements on Ange for this is wrong. We lost on what’s effectively a lottery situation.

It's judgement and yes it's fine margins.

Honestly I don't know what the fuss is about:
- it is Ange's first season and 4th game, he is expected to make mistakes
- it wasn't a wash out... We could have won it in regular time
- a lot of players were last season's starters..who'd have thought they were poor enough not to beat Fulham... If anything for me it confirms how poor they are.

I think people get carried away with the first three games and forget that Ange has to be allowed to make mistakes more than experienced managers.

Its a mistake and a black mark only if Ange doesn't learn from it.

BTW I read somewhere that he did th e same at celtic after a champions league game and they lost the next league match.

Sent from my SM-T865 using Fapatalk

 

[DeanoAustin]

It's judgement and yes it's fine margins.

Honestly I don't know what the fuss is about:
- it is Ange's first season and 4th game, he is expected to make mistakes
- it wasn't a wash out... We could have won it in regular time
- a lot of players were last season's starters..who'd have thought they were poor enough not to beat Fulham... If anything for me it confirms how poor they are.

I think people get carried away with the first three games and forget that Ange has to be allowed to make mistakes more than experienced managers.

Its a mistake and a black mark only if Ange doesn't learn from it.

BTW I read somewhere that he did th e same at celtic after a champions league game and they lost the next league match.

Sent from my SM-T865 using Fapatalk

He's not exempt from criticism but I think some fans have gotten carried away with the first 3 games as if Ange has discovered the key to never losing again.

The fact remains, he's relatively inexperienced at this level and he's coming into a job where better managers than him, in terms of achievement, have failed. If he gets us top 8, that's par for the course. If he gets us top 6, he's done well. If he gets top 4, he's done amazing. I'm a little concerned about the extreme reactions at the moment from the euphoria of winning to the booing at half time on Tuesday to some of the stuff I've seen online. Our fan base seems to be very polarised at the moment which, given the events of the last 4 years, isn't that surprising I guess.

 

[Jurgen the German]

He's not exempt from criticism but I think some fans have gotten carried away with the first 3 games as if Ange has discovered the key to never losing again.

The fact remains, he's relatively inexperienced at this level and he's coming into a job where better managers than him, in terms of achievement, have failed. If he gets us top 8, that's par for the course. If he gets us top 6, he's done well. If he gets top 4, he's done amazing. I'm a little concerned about the extreme reactions at the moment from the euphoria of winning to the booing at half time on Tuesday to some of the stuff I've seen online. Our fan base seems to be very polarised at the moment which, given the events of the last 4 years, isn't that surprising I guess.

I agree. I’ve seen people arguing we will/should be pushing for the top 4 which I think is a little unrealistic personally. We’ve just lost a world class striker who contributed roughly 25 league goals every season. It does look like we have improved in other areas which is promising. I would say top 6 is more realistic. I for one won’t be calling for his head if we finish 8th like we did last season. As long as there are encouraging signs and it looks like we are going in the right direction.

On the subject of the lineup against Fulham, I think Ange got it wrong. The club needs a trophy and this competition arguably represented our best chance of winning silverware this season.