Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Grays_1890]

I have my doubts. The key to signing top players is wages. We have the lowest wages to turnover ratio in the league and have had it for a very long time. Levy also very much wants to structure payments to players to be as performance based as possible. That’s a brilliant philosophy from a business and sustainability perspective and I do admire and appreciate him for it.

However, I don’t think it’s a strategy that will ever allow us to compete for really top players. And that’s where I think Levy has brought us as far as he can. Unless he has a massive change in approach or the league gets some very strict control over wages (which could be a problem with Saudi offering unlimited wages), we’re forever going to be competing for very good players with potential rather than ready made superstars.

That doesn't account for landscape changing. We are entering into another year of commercial buoyancy with even more to come to the table to add to that. The squads set to be more streamlined, we have nearly a 1m a week in wages to go in next 6/9 months or so.

My point is that if we continue to become successful and targeted in the market and the team build initially works nothing stops the move to add star quality later down the line, the resources are certainly there.

Loads of factors IMO that makes us able to compete, I could be well off but as I say the clubs landscape is changing to something it's never been before in the past so no one truly knows. The gaps should also shrink now that it seems FFP is starting to be enforced on others.

 

[DeanoAustin]

That doesn't account for landscape changing. We are entering into another year of commercial buoyancy with even more to come to the table to add to that. The squads set to be more streamlined, we have nearly a 1m a week in wages to go in next 6/9 months or so.

My point is that if we continue to become successful and targeted in the market and the team build initially works nothing stops the move to add star quality later down the line, the resources are certainly there.

Loads of factors IMO that makes us able to compete, I could be well off but as I say the clubs landscape is changing to something it's never been before in the past so no one truly knows. The gaps should also shrink now that it seems FFP is starting to be enforced on others.

If Levy was intent on keeping the wages to turnover ratio under the type of control he has now, it'd need our revenue to outstrip Man U, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Woolwich to compete on wages. We've made brilliant progress on the revenue front but are still not in the league of some of them (for various reasons). As long as Levy keeps that ratio low, we're not buying top players.

 

[Grays_1890]

If Levy was intent on keeping the wages to turnover ratio under the type of control he has now, it'd need our revenue to outstrip Man U, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Woolwich to compete on wages. We've made brilliant progress on the revenue front but are still not in the league of some of them (for various reasons). As long as Levy keeps that ratio low, we're not buying top players.

Fractionally behind some of them based on last years figures and ahead of others. With things like the F1 coming on board and the extension of events thats only going to grow. As I say if we get things right in the next year I see scope to add top players within reason, I am not talking a whole squad of them.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Fractionally behind some of them based on last years figures and ahead of others. With things like the F1 coming on board and the extension of events thats only going to grow. As I say if we get things right in the next year I see scope to add top players within reason, I am not talking a whole squad of them.

Just took a look at the last figures I could find (quickly). We were well behind City, Man U and Liverpool.

To put numbers on that, City took in £731m, Man U £688m, Liverpool £701.7m. We generated £523m. That’s a £150m-£200m shortfall on revenue.

Even if we plugged that gap, which is a massive ask, they all spend a higher percentage of turnover on wages to give wage bills of £453m (City @ 62%), £448m (Man U @ 65%), £449m (Liverpool @ 64%).

We spend 57% of our revenue on wages which is the lowest in the league (average is 71% albeit some clubs are being reckless).

 

[Grays_1890]

Just took a look at the last figures I could find (quickly). We were well behind City, Man U and Liverpool.

To put numbers on that, City took in £731m, Man U £688m, Liverpool £701.7m. We generated £523m. That’s a £150m-£200m shortfall on revenue.

Even if we plugged that gap, which is a massive ask, they all spend a higher percentage of turnover on wages to give wage bills of £453m (City @ 62%), £448m (Man U @ 65%), £449m (Liverpool @ 64%).

We spend 57% of our revenue on wages which is the lowest in the league (average is 71% albeit some clubs are being reckless).

Yeh but there are always going to be bigger clubs out there, I can live with that. Undoubtedly our MO, which I agree with given the continuing number of the big players go to those clubs and fail is to get the stars before they become stars. My point is if enough of those stars align and Ange gets the parts he wants (which till now he has) and we clear the wastage on the wage bill (which we will naturally in the next year), that if in a years time someone with real star quality comes up and we have one area to improve we have the ability and the space and scope in our finances to get a top player. I am not big on the past to judge the future as it changes all the time and as I keep saying, the landscape on our finances changes significantly year on year.

Given that the powers are tightening up with FFP etc any new owner would have to by and large operate within the same scope, yes there would be wiggle room given we fall way under at the moment, but its would not be significant enough to change the entire spending strategy of the club

 

[DeanoAustin]

Yeh but there are always going to be bigger clubs out there, I can live with that. Undoubtedly our MO, which I agree with given the continuing number of the big players go to those clubs and fail is to get the stars before they become stars. My point is if enough of those stars align and Ange gets the parts he wants (which till now he has) and we clear the wastage on the wage bill (which we will naturally in the next year), that if in a years time someone with real star quality comes up and we have one area to improve we have the ability and the space and scope in our finances to get a top player. I am not big on the past to judge the future as it changes all the time and as I keep saying, the landscape on our finances changes significantly year on year.

Given that the powers are tightening up with FFP etc any new owner would have to by and large operate within the same scope, yes there would be wiggle room given we fall way under at the moment, but its would not be significant enough to change the entire spending strategy of the club

I think the problem with splashing out on one player is the possibility of wage inflation as Maddison, Sonny, VdV, Romero, Udogie, Vicario start beating a path to Levy’s door to enquire why they aren’t on the same money as we’re now paying Mbappe.


To be honest, I do hope you’re right and you’ve put your points across well. I’m just trying to manage my expectations. As long as Ange gets us challenging top6/top 4 and plays this way, I’m happy. If Ange falls below that over the next 2-3 seasons, then he gets questioned. If Levy changes his strategy/spending habits, even better.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think the problem with splashing out on one player is the possibility of wage inflation as Maddison, Sonny, VdV, Romero, Udogie, Vicario start beating a path to Levy’s door to enquire why they aren’t on the same money as we’re now paying Mbappe.


To be honest, I do hope you’re right and you’ve put your points across well. I’m just trying to manage my expectations. As long as Ange gets us challenging top6/top 4 and plays this way, I’m happy. If Ange falls below that over the next 2-3 seasons, then he gets questioned. If Levy changes his strategy/spending habits, even better.

Yeh look I get to and I am speculating, I learnt long ago not to expect. I just think we are forging a path which is starting to make sense to me even If I am wrong about it haha.

 

[Raziel]

Just took a look at the last figures I could find (quickly). We were well behind City, Man U and Liverpool.

To put numbers on that, City took in £731m, Man U £688m, Liverpool £701.7m. We generated £523m. That’s a £150m-£200m shortfall on revenue.

Even if we plugged that gap, which is a massive ask, they all spend a higher percentage of turnover on wages to give wage bills of £453m (City @ 62%), £448m (Man U @ 65%), £449m (Liverpool @ 64%).

We spend 57% of our revenue on wages which is the lowest in the league (average is 71% albeit some clubs are being reckless).

City's numbers aren't real, United is on a plane by itself. We have caught Chelsea & Arsenal (something 7-8 years ago would have been a pipe dream). Liverpool fluctuates, we have gotten close some years.

Your point does remain, we have to be a bit braver with wages, but we also have to get back to CL, the stadium will continue to add additional revenue that will be a difference maker vs. those other clubs

Re Ange, I think the club has tried all the options, tacticians, motivators, "winners", what other option is there? The logical answer is let the guy have a run (the journey will be fun to watch regardless of result), lets oversee this transition from the Poch era side to a new side (lot done already but probably 5-7 more in/outs needed) and reassess probably at end of next season

Maybe the real question is who would you swap him for?

 

[DeanoAustin]

City's numbers aren't real, United is on a plane by itself. We have caught Chelsea & Arsenal (something 7-8 years ago would have been a pipe dream). Liverpool fluctuates, we have gotten close some years.

Your point does remain, we have to be a bit braver with wages, but we also have to get back to CL, the stadium will continue to add additional revenue that will be a difference maker vs. those other clubs

Re Ange, I think the club has tried all the options, tacticians, motivators, "winners", what other option is there? The logical answer is let the guy have a run (the journey will be fun to watch regardless of result), lets oversee this transition from the Poch era side to a new side (lot done already but probably 5-7 more in/outs needed) and reassess probably at end of next season

Maybe the real question is who would you swap him for?

I absolutely would not swap Ange. I didn't want the guy but I love everything about him. I'm just managing my expectations.

I think there are limits to what we can achieve barring the extraordinary luck that Leicester had in 2016. Those limits primarily concern the ownership who I am not bashing or blaming. I think their model is responsible, sustainable and very clever. It just won't get us challenging at the top end. I think there are some limits with the coach that I've outlined but I actually really admire him for his principles and dedication.

I guess I'm being a bit "glass half empty" but I get the sense that some fans are expecting that we'll really challenge when we have our players back. I don't believe we will. 3rd-6th is the limit of our capability. We'll have some unbelievable days with this coach but we may have some massive disappointments too because of how he approaches the game. I'm fine with that as long as we're top 6ish and playing entertaining football.

 

[spurspinter1]

City's numbers aren't real, United is on a plane by itself. We have caught Chelsea & Arsenal (something 7-8 years ago would have been a pipe dream). Liverpool fluctuates, we have gotten close some years.

Your point does remain, we have to be a bit braver with wages, but we also have to get back to CL, the stadium will continue to add additional revenue that will be a difference maker vs. those other clubs

Re Ange, I think the club has tried all the options, tacticians, motivators, "winners", what other option is there? The logical answer is let the guy have a run (the journey will be fun to watch regardless of result), lets oversee this transition from the Poch era side to a new side (lot done already but probably 5-7 more in/outs needed) and reassess probably at end of next season

Maybe the real question is who would you swap him for?

I haven't seen anyone suggesting we've got the wrong man in terms of recruitment apart from the initial naysayers due to him not having experience in high profile leagues.

It's now about giving Ange the tools that he needs, posters are talking about patience and the long term project which is excellent and there's a lot of credit in the bank from the start of the season. I wouldn't swap him for any other manager currently, Pep or anyone else isn't doing much with that line up we put out against Villa.

However, there is however a bit of a "this time next year we'll be millionaires" feeling about the club, it's very easy to say we just need to sell the unsuited players and hangers on in order to improve the squad as a whole but we seem to be saying that every season without fail. This time around it is different as there's someone at the helm that is likable and matches the club ethos, I do believe that Ange can build something special but not if we've got a team that falls on it's arse after losing 2 key players without even having European football which is typically used as an excuse. We've seen what Ange ball can do with the right caliber of players so let's get him some more of those.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I haven't seen anyone suggesting we've got the wrong man in terms of recruitment apart from the initial naysayers due to him not having experience in high profile leagues.

It's now about giving Ange the tools that he needs, posters are talking about patience and the long term project which is excellent and there's a lot of credit in the bank from the start of the season. I wouldn't swap him for any other manager currently, Pep or anyone else isn't doing much with that line up we put out against Villa.

However, there is however a bit of a "this time next year we'll be millionaires" feeling about the club, it's very easy to say we just need to sell the unsuited players and hangers on in order to improve the squad as a whole but we seem to be saying that every season without fail. This time around it is different as there's someone at the helm that is likable and matches the club ethos, I do believe that Ange can build something special but not if we've got a team that falls on it's arse after losing 2 key players without even having European football which is typically used as an excuse. We've seen what Ange ball can do with the right caliber of players so let's get him some more of those.

I’m not convinced we will get much money in for the players we do need to shift

It’s mouth number and I’d guess maybe £60-£80m
But…
We will have our own revenue to spend
Hopefully CL football
And we do have youth to promote too
A key now is we have completed the changes needed to the structure. That gives the club the platform needee

My nervousness is that recent recruitment has been exceptional. Can that really carry on. I’m not sure

 

[spurspinter1]

I’m not convinced we will get much money in for the players we do need to shift

It’s mouth number and I’d guess maybe £60-£80m
But…
We will have our own revenue to spend
Hopefully CL football
And we do have youth to promote too
A key now is we have completed the changes needed to the structure. That gives the club the platform needee

My nervousness is that recent recruitment has been exceptional. Can that really carry on. I’m not sure

Whatever we can get + the wage budget being eased by Lloris and Perisic leaving should give us a bit to play with but obviously that'll be the summer. It is disappointing but predictable to be writing off this season, I don't mean to be dwelling on the negativity nor constantly repeating myself but losing Maddison and VDV long term is huge, and rushing Micky back considering he's had hamstring issues in the past would be madness. Not sure if I'm being a tad stubborn on this view but they are the injuries that are the sucker punches, no one is really that bothered that Sess / Solomon / Ivan / even Richy (despite me being a massive fan) are out, they're nice options to have but they do seem to be pawns in a pity party.

Whilst there's been a lot of individual successes transfer wise I do think the squad planning has left a bit to be desired but it's just one transfer window with some bad luck on the injury side of things. It's nice to get young prospects in and hindsight is always 20/20 but hypothetically if we had got someone like Kelly in instead of spending on Veliz / Phillips things would look a lot healthier for quality cover.

Not sure if Ange has a record of bringing through youth from academies, it may be something attributed to him because it's what we want rather than what any evidence suggests. Clearly by picking Sarr over PEH, Ange is happy to have younger players in place of experience if they are more suited to the system though so that's a good thing all in all.

 

[afsoc4life]

I am hoping that some of Spurs youth can be tried.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I am hoping that some of Spurs youth can be tried.

What's the crime?

 

[Raziel]

Whatever we can get + the wage budget being eased by Lloris and Perisic leaving should give us a bit to play with but obviously that'll be the summer. It is disappointing but predictable to be writing off this season, I don't mean to be dwelling on the negativity nor constantly repeating myself but losing Maddison and VDV long term is huge, and rushing Micky back considering he's had hamstring issues in the past would be madness. Not sure if I'm being a tad stubborn on this view but they are the injuries that are the sucker punches, no one is really that bothered that Sess / Solomon / Ivan / even Richy (despite me being a massive fan) are out, they're nice options to have but they do seem to be pawns in a pity party.

Whilst there's been a lot of individual successes transfer wise I do think the squad planning has left a bit to be desired but it's just one transfer window with some bad luck on the injury side of things. It's nice to get young prospects in and hindsight is always 20/20 but hypothetically if we had got someone like Kelly in instead of spending on Veliz / Phillips things would look a lot healthier for quality cover.

Not sure if Ange has a record of bringing through youth from academies, it may be something attributed to him because it's what we want rather than what any evidence suggests. Clearly by picking Sarr over PEH, Ange is happy to have younger players in place of experience if they are more suited to the system though so that's a good thing all in all.

I think (to answer this and your previous post), re the squad, the outs matter, and while we have been brick at that in the past, a few now are contract ends, the rest have seen clearly if Ange doesn't rate you, he won't play you no matter how bad the injury list, so I'm not as concerned

On the injuries, the obvious ones are there (VDV, Maddison plus suspensions), but I'd actually say Perisic is another big miss, he consistently creates assists and as a bench option with Veliz (very good in air) would have given us something. I don't think it's two players out is the issue, we could compensate for Maddison with GLC & Bentancur, we could compensate for VDV with Romero plus Davies/Royal covering (maybe even Ashley who is also injured), we could compensate for Johnson/Richi with Perisic, Solomon, the problem is 10 out and we are trying to make compensations is 3 different parts of the field at same time with a team learning a new system (it's fudging nuts)

The piece I think with Ange is -> he wants players who buy in more than finished article, he's never had unlimited budget, for 25+ years he's known it's making tradeoffs, he's very accustomed to that by now.

 

[spurspinter1]

I think (to answer this and your previous post), re the squad, the outs matter, and while we have been brick at that in the past, a few now are contract ends, the rest have seen clearly if Ange doesn't rate you, he won't play you no matter how bad the injury list, so I'm not as concerned

On the injuries, the obvious ones are there (VDV, Maddison plus suspensions), but I'd actually say Perisic is another big miss, he consistently creates assists and as a bench option with Veliz (very good in air) would have given us something. I don't think it's two players out is the issue, we could compensate for Maddison with GLC & Bentancur, we could compensate for VDV with Romero plus Davies/Royal covering (maybe even Ashley who is also injured), we could compensate for Johnson/Richi with Perisic, Solomon, the problem is 10 out and we are trying to make compensations is 3 different parts of the field at same time with a team learning a new system (it's fudging nuts)

The piece I think with Ange is -> he wants players who buy in more than finished article, he's never had unlimited budget, for 25+ years he's known it's making tradeoffs, he's very accustomed to that by now.

There were a few that Conte had been clear about not playing as well, Jose too, that doesn't negate the fact that you still need another club to come in and pay the fee required otherwise you just end up with loan after loan or having to release players early a la Doherty or Aurier. Not sure who you are suggesting that Ange has exiled either, who hasn't he played? Dier came in against Chelsea, PEH has made a lot of appearances, not sure if I'm forgetting someone.

I just don't see it on the compensating for the loss of VDV, there's an argument that Bentancur and some workaround in midfield could work but that's not going to happen until February. But for Micky there are no players like him and he was already bailing out Romero. Re the forward line yeah I think there's enough cover there with a lot more to come from Johnson Veliz and hopefully Gill. Perisic is / was a nice option for sure but the reason our results have gone to brick is not having CB's suitable for the system and losing our current Eriksen ie the guy that knits everything together, it's not because we don't have the likes of Ivan / Solomon / Phillips / Sessegnon / Richarlison. Apologies if I'm being bullish on that point, but JM + VDV are the last two you wouldn't want to lose, with Bentancur coming in third but his absence will be more crucial in January.

There's no point making our that injured squad players were the reason for this slump in results, the self inflicted suspensions haven't helped but most onlookers knew the form wouldn't continue once we'd lost a few key players, anyone could see that come the close of the transfer window.

Whilst it may sound like I'm moaning, the key point is I'm happy with what Ange has done with what he's got, but unless we get him better the whole thing is a washout. Hoping for a full season of no bad fortune in injuries isn't really indicative of solid planning, and if we do get any kind of European football next season will be more testing so there's a lot of work to do on the squad (like there always is).

 

[Grays_1890]

I have seen enough from Ange to think that he will be a major success here if we back him, I think we will personally based on what we have started to do in recent windows Sunday was not the downer it would have been had he been in season 2 or 3, we knew that it was going to be a year of development and if anything knowing we could play like we did first half with an injury crisis for the ages was a massive indicator of what Ange is bringing to this side. We knew it was unlikely we would really kick on to glory in year one, the start was personally way beyond what I expected. We will be fine

 

[glasgowspur]

I have seen enough from Ange to think that he will be a major success here if we back him, I think we will personally based on what we have started to do in recent windows Sunday was not the downer it would have been had he been in season 2 or 3, we knew that it was going to be a year of development and if anything knowing we could play like we did first half with an injury crisis for the ages was a massive indicator of what Ange is bringing to this side. We knew it was unlikely we would really kick on to glory in year one, the start was personally way beyond what I expected. We will be fine

Key issue for me is managing expectations.
Major success is difficult to quantify because everyone will have a different idea of what that is.
Should we be lucky enough to keep ange for 5 seasons I personally would consider consistent top four finishes, two or three domestic cups and a possible European trophy as major success.
A PL title is unlikely, but I feel we would be in a decent position to take advantage of a city slip up.
Success would be two or three trophies along with CL qualifications over the five years.

Let's not get sucked into the trap we did with Poch when we punched way above our weight for much longer than should have been possible and when we couldn't keep it going we collapsed under unrealistic expectations.

 

[Grays_1890]

Key issue for me is managing expectations.
Major success is difficult to quantify because everyone will have a different idea of what that is.
Should we be lucky enough to keep ange for 5 seasons I personally would consider consistent top four finishes, two or three domestic cups and a possible European trophy as major success.
A PL title is unlikely, but I feel we would be in a decent position to take advantage of a city slip up.
Success would be two or three trophies along with CL qualifications over the five years.

Let's not get sucked into the trap we did with Poch when we punched way above our weight for much longer than should have been possible and when we couldn't keep it going we collapsed under unrealistic expectations.

Its absolutely about expectation but also letting things happen before we judge. We don't know how this is going to pan out, I for one will enjoy the journey

 

[Raziel]

There were a few that Conte had been clear about not playing as well, Jose too, that doesn't negate the fact that you still need another club to come in and pay the fee required otherwise you just end up with loan after loan or having to release players early a la Doherty or Aurier. Not sure who you are suggesting that Ange has exiled either, who hasn't he played? Dier came in against Chelsea, PEH has made a lot of appearances, not sure if I'm forgetting someone.

I just don't see it on the compensating for the loss of VDV, there's an argument that Bentancur and some workaround in midfield could work but that's not going to happen until February. But for Micky there are no players like him and he was already bailing out Romero. Re the forward line yeah I think there's enough cover there with a lot more to come from Johnson Veliz and hopefully Gill. Perisic is / was a nice option for sure but the reason our results have gone to brick is not having CB's suitable for the system and losing our current Eriksen ie the guy that knits everything together, it's not because we don't have the likes of Ivan / Solomon / Phillips / Sessegnon / Richarlison. Apologies if I'm being bullish on that point, but JM + VDV are the last two you wouldn't want to lose, with Bentancur coming in third but his absence will be more crucial in January.

There's no point making our that injured squad players were the reason for this slump in results, the self inflicted suspensions haven't helped but most onlookers knew the form wouldn't continue once we'd lost a few key players, anyone could see that come the close of the transfer window.

Whilst it may sound like I'm moaning, the key point is I'm happy with what Ange has done with what he's got, but unless we get him better the whole thing is a washout. Hoping for a full season of no bad fortune in injuries isn't really indicative of solid planning, and if we do get any kind of European football next season will be more testing so there's a lot of work to do on the squad (like there always is).

Every side has that unreplaceable player, VDV is key because he can pretty much outrun anyone in the league and actually defend, some players you don't get depth for.

This is where I disagree, you can never plan for all injuries at the same time, as example we had very good cover for LW, Johnson, Perisic, Solomon and Richi have all been injured and we can still put out a decent player, CB's were always a gamble and it's hurt us.

The issue is the start we had has made people forget the task
- We effectively changed 7 first team players this year, plus added depth of Solomon, Veliz, Ashley
- So pretty much half of the usable senior squad is new to PL, new to club, or have less than a half a season of playing time for us
- New manager, vastly different playing style
- Loss of the best striker in the world

This was never a one window fix, and the fact that we are complaining about depth (not actual first 11 when fit) is an amazing testament to the work done.