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Vaccine = Stadium Entry

Lilbaz said:
I think people should get vaccinated, i don't think the public should be forced to against their will. People in health care are looking after vulnerable people, in order to do that they should be vaccinated. It is their choice to do that job. If they don't want to be vaccinated they can leave.
People coming to this country choose to do so and would have to meet entry requirements of being vaccinated.

It's not all black and white but there's no contradiction.
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"Not that i agree with scaramanga.

But you view puts us in very dangerous territory. The needs of the many out weigh the neeeds of the few."

And

"But. We are talking about excluding people from certain aspects of society unless they inject themselves with something that possibly kill them. For the greater good."

And

"My personal view is that people should be free to do whatever they want. As long as that freedom does not impede anothers freedom. Including their freedom to have life or happiness. If it does then laws and government need to step in to ensure the best outcome for all."

Plus the post above.

I guess the answer to my question wasn't seesaw.
 
monkeybarry said:
"Not that i agree with scaramanga.

But you view puts us in very dangerous territory. The needs of the many out weigh the neeeds of the few."

And

"But. We are talking about excluding people from certain aspects of society unless they inject themselves with something that possibly kill them. For the greater good."

And

"My personal view is that people should be free to do whatever they want. As long as that freedom does not impede anothers freedom. Including their freedom to have life or happiness. If it does then laws and government need to step in to ensure the best outcome for all."

Plus the post above.

I guess the answer to my question wasn't seesaw.
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Still don't get your point. How do you see that as a contradiction? You not having the vaccine does not impede my freedom if i have had it. There may be a small risk that you might pass covid on to me and i might die but that risk is offset by the risk of side effects from the vaccine that could kill you.
The main risk is to you of catching the virus and dying. You should be free to take that risk if you wanted. You dying doesn't impact my freedom.
 
monkeybarry said:
No they're not - they are elected to govern. By definition that isn't freedom, it's creating societal balance and fairness for all.
That includes managing risk in public health - if people don't want to participate in the measures, they should be disadvantaged in favour of those that do wish to participate.
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I absolutely agree with your final sentence. Those who do not get vaccinated should not receive the same benefits the rest of us do.

Bit the govt controlling other people's choices is overstepping their bounds.
 
Lilbaz said:
Didn't look at the tests as i've been vaccinated. It's on the spurs website though with links to where to get them.
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Didn’t make it obvious when i ordered the tickets, thought i would have been prompted before hand. I have only had 1 jab so looks like a test for me then.
 
scaramanga said:
I absolutely agree with your final sentence. Those who do not get vaccinated should not receive the same benefits the rest of us do.

Bit the govt controlling other people's choices is overstepping their bounds.
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And in this case, how do you manage that?
You can't manage it at industry level because money will become before public health - so only a reduction in customers will create private industry policy. And that will come at a health cost, which in turn will affect the economy and become a vicious cycle.
That's also why we need governance, not a free for all. It's why we have tax thresholds and safety and quality regulations.
The requirement for proof of vaccine status is just a safety measure, in the same way as not being allowed to put harmful chemicals in chicken is.
 
Lilbaz said:
Still don't get your point. How do you see that as a contradiction? You not having the vaccine does not impede my freedom if i have had it. There may be a small risk that you might pass covid on to me and i might die but that risk is offset by the risk of side effects from the vaccine that could kill you.
The main risk is to you of catching the virus and dying. You should be free to take that risk if you wanted. You dying doesn't impact my freedom.
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It absolutely affects your freedom.
If you in an environment with a significant number of non vaccinated people, your risk of infection increases because of their "freedom".

If you are highly vulnerable person, you are less likely to be able to attend events if the likelihood of non vaccinated people is significant. Therefore your freedom is impacted because of someone who believes David Icke's "freedom".

If more people are in hospital because of not getting vaccinated and medical capacity is reduced, if you get sick (covid or not), your risk of less thorough treatment increases - with potential outputs that could life changing, or even just mean you in hospital a bit longer. Again, your freedom affected because of a non vaxxers "freedom".
 
monkeybarry said:
And in this case, how do you manage that?
You can't manage it at industry level because money will become before public health - so only a reduction in customers will create private industry policy. And that will come at a health cost, which in turn will affect the economy and become a vicious cycle.
That's also why we need governance, not a free for all. It's why we have tax thresholds and safety and quality regulations.
The requirement for proof of vaccine status is just a safety measure, in the same way as not being allowed to put harmful chemicals in chicken is.
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They don't manage private business - the clue is in the name.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Traffic lights must enrage some of you, the government imposing on your freedoms to reduce traffic and accidents. How dare they.
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The government have provided those roads, the rules are theirs to control.

The government does not provide our stadium or the product inside it.
 
Lilbaz said:
Still don't get your point. How do you see that as a contradiction? You not having the vaccine does not impede my freedom if i have had it. There may be a small risk that you might pass covid on to me and i might die but that risk is offset by the risk of side effects from the vaccine that could kill you.
The main risk is to you of catching the virus and dying. You should be free to take that risk if you wanted. You dying doesn't impact my freedom.[/QUOTE]


I said the opposite to her indoors last night.
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[
monkeybarry said:
It absolutely affects your freedom.
If you in an environment with a significant number of non vaccinated people, your risk of infection increases because of their "freedom".

If you are highly vulnerable person, you are less likely to be able to attend events if the likelihood of non vaccinated people is significant. Therefore your freedom is impacted because of someone who believes David Icke's "freedom".

If more people are in hospital because of not getting vaccinated and medical capacity is reduced, if you get sick (covid or not), your risk of less thorough treatment increases - with potential outputs that could life changing, or even just mean you in hospital a bit longer. Again, your freedom affected because of a non vaxxers "freedom".
Click to expand...

What about the freedom of the people that die from taking the vaccine? Or have severe side effects? Younger people are just as likely to die from the vaccine as they are from covid. If you are 18 or younger the vaccine is twice as deadly.

If you are a vulnerable person you have the choice to go to mass events or not. You are not giving unvaccinated people a choice.

As for hospitals, covid patients take up 3% of beds at the moment (and the number has been falling the last couple of days). The ifr is estimated at 0.2% (less than flu at 0.2%). Should flu jabs be mandatory? More people are dying in road accidents than covid, should we get rid of cars and make people use public transport?

There are other ways. Encourage people to take the vaccine (have a lottery or something for people that have been vaccinated, the winner gets a million quid). Make it more accessible. Mosques in east london started to do vaccinations, the take up amongst the local muslim community shot up, because they trusted the people. Local gps or chemists can do them.
Better help people to isolate if they test positive and ensure they do (there is a difference between being infected and unvaccinated).
 
Lilbaz said:
[


What about the freedom of the people that die from taking the vaccine? Or have severe side effects? Younger people are just as likely to die from the vaccine as they are from covid. If you are 18 or younger the vaccine is twice as deadly.

If you are a vulnerable person you have the choice to go to mass events or not. You are not giving unvaccinated people a choice.

As for hospitals, covid patients take up 3% of beds at the moment (and the number has been falling the last couple of days). The ifr is estimated at 0.2% (less than flu at 0.2%). Should flu jabs be mandatory? More people are dying in road accidents than covid, should we get rid of cars and make people use public transport?

There are other ways. Encourage people to take the vaccine (have a lottery or something for people that have been vaccinated, the winner gets a million quid). Make it more accessible. Mosques in east london started to do vaccinations, the take up amongst the local muslim community shot up, because they trusted the people. Local gps or chemists can do them.
Better help people to isolate if they test positive and ensure they do (there is a difference between being infected and unvaccinated).
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I. Can you back that up?
II. It hasn't been suggested that it applies to u-18s.
 
monkeybarry said:
I. Can you back that up?
II. It hasn't been suggested that it applies to u-18s.
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Posted the cdc article (in the covid thread) that had deaths for those 18 and younger at 2 in a million (why they didn't say 1 in a million i don't know).
The az vax was banned for those under 30 cause the risk was estimated at between 1 in 100k and 250k. So we used the pfizer vax instead.
Turns out according to a study in the lancet there is no difference in the risk.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eu...ot-risk-similar-to-pfizer-spanish-study-finds
 
scaramanga said:
So there's no limit to where they should stick their noses?
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Apparently there is.....

images
 
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