Transfer thread

[Finney Is Back]

Same as lots of teams really...mind you, even if we did have cash we would hardly announce it!

Key then is to offload some players - Lamela, Aurier etc - given that there will be some stonking bargains around

The problem is that our starting point is behind a fair few teams and some of those (and others below us) will be spending money in the next window.

Without some surgery on the squad (a new defensive midfield player and new centre half as a minimum and ideally new full backs and another centre forward) I think we'll find ourselves slipping back towards the pack again.

If this window does see most players going for less than half of their natural value then I wonder whether we could sell one of our big names to fund some activity. Problem is that I could only see clubs paying proper big money for Kane, Son and Dele.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The problem is that our starting point is behind a fair few teams and some of those (and others below us) will be spending money in the next window.

Without some surgery on the squad (a new defensive midfield player and new centre half as a minimum and ideally new full backs and another centre forward) I think we'll find ourselves slipping back towards the pack again.

If this window does see most players going for less than half of their natural value then I wonder whether we could sell one of our big names to fund some activity. Problem is that I could only see clubs paying proper big money for Kane, Son and Dele.

But who can and will pay big money?
United are always talked about but their quickly changing their tune due losses being made and their massively driven by share price so need positive press to create “value” but a proven player won’t sign for a team managed by Ole IMO
City... the can still buy anyone as we know
pool I doubt it to be honest and can see them Suffering as much as us ££ wise
Same with arse
Chelsea are extending contracts as their not flush and Roman ain’t backing them anymore
You have PSG who can do whatever they want due to how their funded
Barca don’t have a pot to pee in and are crippled by the wages
Madrid is a basket case financially so GHod knows what they will do
And no German club spends beyond their means

You always need a spark to start a market and I can’t see where it’s gonna come from

 

[AdamB]

The problem is that our starting point is behind a fair few teams and some of those (and others below us) will be spending money in the next window.

Without some surgery on the squad (a new defensive midfield player and new centre half as a minimum and ideally new full backs and another centre forward) I think we'll find ourselves slipping back towards the pack again.

If this window does see most players going for less than half of their natural value then I wonder whether we could sell one of our big names to fund some activity. Problem is that I could only see clubs paying proper big money for Kane, Son and Dele.

Yep, I wasnt suggesting we're in a good place! We need to spend quite a bit, or shop incredibly well. I dont see us selling any of those names...going to be an interesting summer, made even more difficult as clubs won't have a clue what level of income they'll be getting from gate receipts next season

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yep, I wasnt suggesting we're in a good place! We need to spend quite a bit, or shop incredibly well. I dont see us selling any of those names...going to be an interesting summer, made even more difficult as clubs won't have a clue what level of income they'll be getting from gate receipts next season

Clubs will surely assume a very low to negligible sum from gate receipts

 

[Finney Is Back]

But who can and will pay big money?
United are always talked about but their quickly changing their tune due losses being made and their massively driven by share price so need positive press to create “value” but a proven player won’t sign for a team managed by Ole IMO
City... the can still buy anyone as we know
pool I doubt it to be honest and can see them Suffering as much as us ££ wise
Same with arse
Chelsea are extending contracts as their not flush and Roman ain’t backing them anymore
You have PSG who can do whatever they want due to how their funded
Barca don’t have a pot to pee in and are crippled by the wages
Madrid is a basket case financially so GHod knows what they will do
And no German club spends beyond their means

You always need a spark to start a market and I can’t see where it’s gonna come from

Most (but not all) clubs will be hamstrung somewhat I agree. Of course certain clubs will be more hamstrung than others. I think the two Madrid clubs will have been impacted and Barcelona as well (although their playing staff did take a very large pay cut which will leave them in better shape than many). PSG and Emirates Marketing Project will be in great shape though, I think there are also a few Italian clubs bankrolled by super wealthy funds that will use this opportunity to inject funds.

The big problem is that we are pretty much at the very top of the 'hamstrung' list. Our situation is quite unique in that we are carrying more debt than any other team and will be losing the most money of any team in England (and perhaps even the World) due to our stadium being out of action. Couple that with reduced income from (in all likelihood) not being in the CL next season and having owners who do not put their own wealth into the club and we have a situation of income reduced by a bigger amount than our rivals, along with no means to cover that temporary drop in income.

Of course other teams will also be impacted by a reduction in their match day revenue - Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea being the clubs closest to us in that regard. However most of these clubs are in the position to be able to take on more debt to see themselves in a strong position this summer when transfer values are depressed. Unfortunately we do not have that luxury with the whopping debt we are already carrying.

I think the PL clubs who will benefit most from this situation are ones who don't really make vast amounts of income from match day revenue who are coupled with rich backers who seem to be prepared to pump money in.... Leicester, Everton, Wolves and Sheffield United for example. If Saudi Sportswashing Machine's take over goes through they will also be very big spenders of course (especially as it is likely that FFP regulations will be relaxed for a while). Some of these sugar daddy funded clubs could really benefit during this coming period.

I keep on banging on about it but this is the moment where ENIC should dilute their holding for a cash injection. We are hugely impacted right now by the debt that the massive overspend on the stadium created yet are probably only 5 additional players (DM, CH, RB, LB, CF cover) in the squad away from having a team who could win any competition they entered and it is likely that this summer will be an optimum time to add players. Unfortunately though our owner's first priority always seems to be his current net worth.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Most (but not all) clubs will be hamstrung somewhat I agree. Of course certain clubs will be more hamstrung than others. I think the two Madrid clubs will have been impacted and Barcelona as well (although their playing staff did take a very large pay cut which will leave them in better shape than many). PSG and Emirates Marketing Project will be in great shape though, I think there are also a few Italian clubs bankrolled by super wealthy funds that will use this opportunity to inject funds.

The big problem is that we are pretty much at the very top of the 'hamstrung' list. Our situation is quite unique in that we are carrying more debt than any other team and will be losing the most money of any team in England (and perhaps even the World) due to our stadium being out of action. Couple that with reduced income from (in all likelihood) not being in the CL next season and having owners who do not put their own wealth into the club and we have a situation of income reduced by a bigger amount than our rivals, along with no means to cover that temporary drop in income.

Of course other teams will also be impacted by a reduction in their match day revenue - Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea being the clubs closest to us in that regard. However most of these clubs are in the position to be able to take on more debt to see themselves in a strong position this summer when transfer values are depressed. Unfortunately we do not have that luxury with the whopping debt we are already carrying.

I think the PL clubs who will benefit most from this situation are ones who don't really make vast amounts of income from match day revenue who are coupled with rich backers who seem to be prepared to pump money in.... Leicester, Everton, Wolves and Sheffield United for example. If Saudi Sportswashing Machine's take over goes through they will also be very big spenders of course (especially as it is likely that FFP regulations will be relaxed for a while). Some of these sugar daddy funded clubs could really benefit during this coming period.

I keep on banging on about it but this is the moment where ENIC should dilute their holding for a cash injection. We are hugely impacted right now by the debt that the massive overspend on the stadium created yet are probably only 5 additional players (DM, CH, RB, LB, CF cover) in the squad away from having a team who could win any competition they entered and it is likely that this summer will be an optimum time to add players. Unfortunately though our owner's first priority always seems to be his current net worth.

It’s a great opportunity for Enic to either plough money in or bring in other investment I agree - I’m not sure if that’s on their agenda though

It’s possible the super rich may well throw money at the clubs they own - I would as it’s chance to optimise their position

I think arsenal are screwed thinking about it as they have players like Aubemeyang who they need to sell before he leaves on a free

uniteds debt position has got worse which is scary for them with the owners taking more money out

but as you say if your a wolves for example now is a time to really put in what isn’t a huge amount of money to make a big leap up

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yep, I wasnt suggesting we're in a good place! We need to spend quite a bit, or shop incredibly well. I dont see us selling any of those names...going to be an interesting summer, made even more difficult as clubs won't have a clue what level of income they'll be getting from gate receipts next season

If we have no money to spend (which I think is a given) then clearly we need to shop very clever. Even the big free transfers might be difficult due to the fact that I doubt we'll have wiggle room on our wage bill with the reduced income from having no CL next season. Already having Gedson means that we have one additional space available for a loan signing, I usually don't advocate signing players on loan with no option, but if we could get a player from one of the real big boys then it might be something worth doing next season.

IMO our need for players in order of urgency is: DM, CH, RB, LB, backup striker.

For a DM; we might be able to do something with Southampton to bring in Hojbjerg in a straight swap for KWP and another player (Foyth maybe?). Unfortunately I can't think of any decent freebies for this position? (although there are quite a few more other than Hojbjerg with only a year left on their contracts (see the end of this post)

At centre half maybe we could try to take Umtiti on loan from Barcelona - him playing a season of PL football would increase his transfer value and Barcelona might be agreeable to that? Otherwise there are three potential freebies available from the continent this summer.... In order of desirability: Malang Sarr from Nice is already a decent player at 21 and could be a good freebie for the future that even on a free would easily fit into our wage structure. The Argentinian; Jose Luis Palomino is on a free from Atalanta, 30 years old, left footed and is one of the starting players for a good Atalanta team, lastly there is the Brazilian Jemerson from Monaco who is 27 and starts about half their games having been at Monaco for the last 3 years. Sarr and Palomino have the added bonus that they are left footed players and we seem a bit lopsided currently with players who prefer to play on the right.

At right back the enticing option is of course Meunier but it seems he has a lot of suitors so I'm not sure we'll want the inevitable big wages on our books. Clyne is out of contract at Liverpool and might be a safe pair of hands. Otherwise there could be some bargains in the Championship as I think lots of clubs in that division will be desperate for funds. I'd love us to take the opportunity to bring in Bogle from Derby, the depressed market might even have him gettable for £4 million or so.

Left back has another enticing freebie in Kurzawa from PSG. Again wages could be an issue. Rose going to Saudi Sportswashing Machine for a few quid might just about allow us to do this. If not then again I say we look to the championship and see if we can get somebody like Rico Henry from Brentford, Omar Richards from Reading or Yuri Ribeiro from Notts Forest. All good Championship players aged around 21/22 and now a good age to move to the premier league. The former two have the advantage of being English as well.

Up front it is probably night on impossible to pick up a good player for little money. My top choice here was Fenerbace's Kosovan CF, Vedat Muriqi. I was pleased to see a report last week that we had bid for him, even if the bid was apparently a paltry £4.5 million with Fener having turned down bids of 20 million million euros in January. I suppose in this market he might be gettable for £12 million and a bunch of reasonable add-ons, although I think there will be a lot of competition for him across Germany, Italy, Spain and England. The Russian, Artem Dzyuba is available on a free transfer from Zenit and at 6'5" with a decent goalscoring record he could play a Llorente type role at the club.

Other players who might be worth keeping an eye on with only 1 year left on their deals are:
Diego Costa at Atletico Madrid (CF)
Maxime Lopez at Marseille (CM)
Javi Martinez at Bayern (DM)
Wendel at Leverkusen (LB) - I thought he looked the business when they beat us in the CL at Wembley and he is still only 26.
Robin Koch at Freiburg (CH) - Only 23. I think he'll go to Dortmund of Leipzig this summer for somewhere between 15 and 20 million euros.
Timothy Castagne (RB) - Only 24. Part of a really good Atalanta side, will be at a top club next season I'm sure.
Marten De Rune (DM) - Starting DM for a very good Atalanta team.
Ibrahim Sangare (DM) - Starting DM for Toulouse, only 22, lots and lots of promise. I think Toulouse have just been relegated and he could be a good bargain buy.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It’s a great opportunity for Enic to either plough money in or bring in other investment I agree - I’m not sure if that’s on their agenda though

It’s possible the super rich may well throw money at the clubs they own - I would as it’s chance to optimise their position

I think arsenal are screwed thinking about it as they have players like Aubemeyang who they need to sell before he leaves on a free

uniteds debt position has got worse which is scary for them with the owners taking more money out

but as you say if your a wolves for example now is a time to really put in what isn’t a huge amount of money to make a big leap up

Yeah - Arsenal have a definite problem with Aubameyang now. I think they might give him a stupid Ozil sized pay offer to stay.

Interesting that you feel that Man Utd's debt position is scary.... Their latest figures were taken at the end of March so more up to date than ours. Comparing their latest figures to the latest that we have available, their debt is over £200 million lower than ours (although I expect ours to have grown from the £640 odd million last reported).

So we have over £200 million more debt that Man Utd, while also having turnover of £150 million less than Man Utd.

Unlike us Man Utd also have instant access to a further £150 million of credit. They may well use that to take advantage of some well priced transfers this summer while we're scraping around trying to pull off swaps and freebies. Even if Man Utd used all of that additional £150 million of credit then their financial position would still be less scary than ours.

Even though the table says otherwise right now, I still think our current squad compares favourably to those of Leicester, Wolves and (especially) Sheffield United. The end of Poch's reign, a CL loss hangover and injuries have given us a bit of a false position I think. That being said, those clubs could all use this summer to change that while we are forced to stand still.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah - Arsenal have a definite problem with Aubameyang now. I think they might give him a stupid Ozil sized pay offer to stay.

Interesting that you feel that Man Utd's debt position is scary.... Their latest figures were taken at the end of March so more up to date than ours. Comparing their latest figures to the latest that we have available, their debt is over £200 million lower than ours (although I expect ours to have grown from the £640 odd million last reported).

So we have over £200 million more debt that Man Utd, while also having turnover of £150 million less than Man Utd.

Unlike us Man Utd also have instant access to a further £150 million of credit. They may well use that to take advantage of some well priced transfers this summer while we're scraping around trying to pull off swaps and freebies. Even if Man Utd used all of that additional £150 million of credit then their financial position would still be less scary than ours.

Even though the table says otherwise right now, I still think our current squad compares favourably to those of Leicester, Wolves and (especially) Sheffield United. The end of Poch's reign, a CL loss hangover and injuries have given us a bit of a false position I think. That being said, those clubs could all use this summer to change that while we are forced to stand still.

but reversely united asset position is much lower than ours

I dont know about the additional £150m they can tap into though

 

[Bedfordspurs]

but reversely united asset position is much lower than ours

I dont know about the additional £150m they can tap into though

@Finney Is Back
Just seen that United have drawn down on a loan for £140m which I assume is the one you mention
The talk from my mate whose a united fan is that’s to pay for the money they owe on transfers though

 

[Finney Is Back]

but reversely united asset position is much lower than ours

I dont know about the additional £150m they can tap into though

Problem with the asset values is that most of it for both clubs is made up of the stadium and the training ground and it's not as if either club can really just decide to sell one of them to pay off their debt (especially as neither of us have council's who will just give us some more land a'la Real Madrid). Our stadium and training ground are worth more on the books than Man Utd's due to quality and expenditure on it (for the former) and location (of the latter) but unless we're considering relocating out to Lincolnshire and starting again it makes little difference (especially as I don't think it is in anyone's interest for us to be selling either of the assets and leasing them back as some clubs with cash flow problems have done previously).

@Finney Is Back
Just seen that United have drawn down on a loan for £140m which I assume is the one you mention
The talk from my mate whose a united fan is that’s to pay for the money they owe on transfers though

I read that this money was to enable them to press ahead and try to purchase their existing targets. Time will tell I guess.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Problem with the asset values is that most of it for both clubs is made up of the stadium and the training ground and it's not as if either club can really just decide to sell one of them to pay off their debt (especially as neither of us have council's who will just give us some more land a'la Real Madrid). Our stadium and training ground are worth more on the books than Man Utd's due to quality and expenditure on it (for the former) and location (of the latter) but unless we're considering relocating out to Lincolnshire and starting again it makes little difference (especially as I don't think it is in anyone's interest for us to be selling either of the assets and leasing them back as some clubs with cash flow problems have done previously).


I read that this money was to enable them to press ahead and try to purchase their existing targets. Time will tell I guess.

Yeah the mail reported that
As always it’s speculation but they have added the loan now
My mates has got really pessimistic about their finances as their wages are so high still
But surely their only losing £100m of income on the ground
Edit - my mates words
Although they have said they can’t pay the £10M tax bill, have a 42% year on year increase in debt now, and recorded a loss in their last quarter despite playing footy in that period

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Yeah the mail reported that
As always it’s speculation but they have added the loan now
My mates has got really pessimistic about their finances as their wages are so high still
But surely their only losing £100m of income on the ground
Edit - my mates words
Although they have said they can’t pay the £10M tax bill, have a 42% year on year increase in debt now, and recorded a loss in their last quarter despite playing footy in that period

That sounds quite bleak for them?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That sounds quite bleak for them?

Depends on your view and what your trying to second guess
My mate is a massive united fan and as he said their turnover now is gonna be significant lower and their expecting less sponsorship reverence too vs the highest wages in the league at £340m and transfer fees owed of £170m so that’s £510m outlay on a turnover of £627m before COVID!
Take off £100m of gate receipts their not earning and they have a problem if they wanna buy players

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Depends on your view and what your trying to second guess
My mate is a massive united fan and as he said their turnover now is gonna be significant lower and their expecting less sponsorship reverence too vs the highest wages in the league at £340m and transfer fees owed of £170m so that’s £510m outlay on a turnover of £627m before COVID!
Take off £100m of gate receipts their not earning and they have a problem if they wanna buy players

Unload the Pogba if they can.? As has been said it is a tricky market though.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Unload the Pogba if they can.? As has been said it is a tricky market though.

£250k a week plus a BIG transfer fee for a player who has been shown to be lazy and injury prone...
I personally can’t see big money transfers happening as I can’t see who will drive it

 

[markysimmo]

Is this not flouting the rules ??

Liverpool are interested in signing Wolves’ Spanish winger Adama Traore, 24, with Liverpool boss Jurgen Klopp reportedly personally contacting the player.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Is this not flouting the rules ??

Liverpool are interested in signing Wolves’ Spanish winger Adama Traore, 24, with Liverpool boss Jurgen Klopp reportedly personally contacting the player.

Liverpool? Rules? Lol. It worked (eventually) with van Dijk, so might as well try it with Traore.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Depends on your view and what your trying to second guess
My mate is a massive united fan and as he said their turnover now is gonna be significant lower and their expecting less sponsorship reverence too vs the highest wages in the league at £340m and transfer fees owed of £170m so that’s £510m outlay on a turnover of £627m before COVID!
Take off £100m of gate receipts their not earning and they have a problem if they wanna buy players

Full figures are here: https://ir.manutd.com/~/media/Files...manchester-united-plc-3q20-interim-report.pdf

It would be nice if our accounts were broken down in this sort of detail (as it would properly let us see what was spent/received in terms of transfer fees along with what has been paid and is still owed).

Page 11 of that shows that Man Utd have £205 million of debt payable in the next 12 months, with £184 million of that being for player acquisitions. They also have a potential £85 million in further 'performance related' transfer costs that they don't show in those debt payable figures. They have also burnt £100 million of cash in the last year (balance down from £190 million to £90 million).

If they don't get back into the Champions league then they will certainly have to reign in their transfer spending (it looks like their net transfer spend last year was a whopping £186.5 million, it's no wonder they cashed in on Lukaku!)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Full figures are here: https://ir.manutd.com/~/media/Files/M/Manutd-IR/Governance Document/manchester-united-plc-3q20-interim-report.pdf

It would be nice if our accounts were broken down in this sort of detail (as it would properly let us see what was spent/received in terms of transfer fees along with what has been paid and is still owed).

Page 11 of that shows that Man Utd have £205 million of debt payable in the next 12 months, with £184 million of that being for player acquisitions. They also have a potential £85 million in further 'performance related' transfer costs that they don't show in those debt payable figures. They have also burnt £100 million of cash in the last year (balance down from £190 million to £90 million).

If they don't get back into the Champions league then they will certainly have to reign in their transfer spending (it looks like their net transfer spend last year was a whopping £186.5 million, it's no wonder they cashed in on Lukaku!)

Guess the reporting reflects their current structure as a company
But my mate thinks their fudged and is worried like I say
Their problem is playing catch up cost them money and they didn’t utilise their youth like their doing now
But I’m sure their not unique although the level of the issue may be
Can’t see them buying Kane and Sancho though despite the press talk