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Toby Alderweireld

So, lower the price until one of the other clubs is interested.

We did that for Bale, for Christ's sake - United offered us more than Madrid did, and we told them to get stuffed.

What difference will the extra 20m or so make if we use it to sign Grealish, anyway?

Also, it's not the same as Bale and Modric transfers. Bale was the star of our team, Modric was integral. Toby is now on the outs, Poch has replaced him with Sanchez and didn't start him last season even when he came back from injury. So we are selling a player who isn't in Poch's first XI for as much money as possible and can then spend that money on players the coach actually wants to play.

If it was Kane or Eriksen, then I'd agree with you. But this isn't the same thing, imo.
 
Also, it's not the same as Bale and Modric transfers. Bale was the star of our team, Modric was integral. Toby is now on the outs, Poch has replaced him with Sanchez and didn't start him last season even when he came back from injury. So we are selling a player who isn't in Poch's first XI for as much money as possible and can then spend that money on players the coach actually wants to play.

If it was Kane or Eriksen, then I'd agree with you. But this isn't the same thing, imo.

Yes, I agree that the context is different on our side in terms of the importance of the player.

But this isn't about the player. This is about strengthening a direct rival, and Toby will strengthen United as Walker strengthened City. This is about accepting that United can take our players while refusing to sell us theirs. And this is about ensuring that everyone understands that we are not a market for the Premier League to strip at will.

@nayimfromthehalfwayline had it right - sometimes, you have to set a marker and enforce it, even if the circumstances are different. Unless this deal sees us end up with Martial, we will have failed to do that (assuming we do sell Toby, anyway).

Re: the money, as I mentioned, if we spend it on Grealish, I'm not sure what the point of the extra 20m is. It didn't bring us anything special. It would have to be someone damn special, and even then, we will have been walked over by United, imo.
 
OK, sorry mate, but I have to...as much for the general "conversational entertainment" of it all. Believe me, if you enjoy "the rabbit hole" you're running down, by all means tell me to go do one and fudge off. that being said, in case you're up for peering behind you at the fast-disappearing daylight...again, nothing personal, just seeing that your druthers are up so I thought I'd get into the mix ;) Responses below in bold...


But their mistakes *did* include selling to their rivals without making them bleed in return. Which we are poised to follow with Toby. So, in that sense, it is doing exactly what they did. And, with regard to selling RVP being like selling Kane, apart from the positional similarity, there's really nothing in that comparison, imo. But selling RVP and selling Toby? There are similarities there, including the contract situation, the buyer and the marker that it set in terms of signalling to every club in the league exactly what Arsenal were.

Sorry, are you comparing the sale of Robin Van Persie -at that point Arsenal's top striker- with Toby Alderweireld, a CB who is becoming injury prone and had little to no effect on our season last season? Just want to make sure.


The alternative is to sell outside the league, or to impress upon the player that it's either being sold outside the league, being sold within the league but on terms that favor us (i.e, we get Martial for Toby) or staying at Spurs.

Y' see, THIS is why I say "wait until Thursday night" before getting the axe out. Man U are DESPERATELY trying to get us to cave in. I remain unconvinced we even want Martial! One thing I DO know is that unless Alderweireld has a personality reboot, I want him out of the club as I worry he could cause problems otherwise.


As for Walker, what's there to say? He was sold, wasn't adequately replaced, and we suffered a lowered performance for it. Nobody can really dispute that, not even the most ardent Trippier fans. Meanwhile, Walker sauntered to the title and racked up 100 points with the most dominant City team in their history. What did we do *right* there? That was a mistake too.

But in that case, Walker had personal connections with the north that limited our options. In this case, I find it extremely hard to believe that Toby would value Manchester over Paris, Munich, Madrid or Barcelona.


We got great money for a player that no longer wanted to be with us, and in turn we helped bring through a player who has matured into such a good player that Southgate changed an entire SYSTEM partially to help accommodate both players!!!!! MOST of our points were dropped early doors, surprisingly when the mighty magic Toby was playing!!!!!!!! Obviously those points dropped are not all his fault -it would be childish of me to say so- but it does bear consideration that anything can be skewed to make any point. The fact is we did NOT noticeably drop off at all last season, Emirates Marketing Project simply spent bazillions more that summer as did Liverpool (who we still finished above), Arsenal (who we still finished above) and Chelski (who we still finished above). BTW, again, wait until Thursday before swinging your axe at the club mate.


Same thing when it comes to 'disrespecting the leading authority at the club', like it's a fudging high-school cheerleading team and everything runs on gossip and innuendo. He's a professional. Poch is a professional. The solution to 'disrespecting the leading authority at the club', is to *respect* the leading authority at the club - to make up and train as hard as possible, and to rebuild bridges. This idea that any player that disrespects Poch has to be instantly sold is just f*cking counterproductive, because it *encourages* players who want moves to be disruptive. Want a move? Great, just betray Poch and he'll immediately bench you, which will lead to you being transferred in the next window. Hell, save yourself the wait and do it while the window's open.


And you know that the manager has not tried to work with the player?
Do you know that the player hasn't engaged in more than one act of "disrespect"?
Look, I'd say disagreements happen everyday at Spurs, and I'd say Poch has rowed with many, but critically, it would appear that the vast majority have found a way to make it work.
You seem to assume it is ONE incident.
Do you REALLY think Poch is either stupid or belligerent enough to make an axe-you decision based on a single action? Come on. Look at the facts surrounding Toby, and then apply some conjecture/guess-work, and you might arrive at a different conclusion.
You might not.
But it is, IMO, worth entertaining.
Anyway, I remain steadfast in hoping we get him out of the club UNLESS he does a 180 and pledges to be a professional fighting for the Tottenham cause and getting paid a fair wage for trying to do so as opposed to a greedy bastard's wage for possibly spending more time in the physic's room than anyone wants.
 
Yes, I agree that the context is different on our side in terms of the importance of the player.

But this isn't about the player. This is about strengthening a direct rival, and Toby will strengthen United as Walker strengthened City. This is about accepting that United can take our players while refusing to sell us theirs. And this is about ensuring that everyone understands that we are not a market for the Premier League to strip at will.

@nayimfromthehalfwayline had it right - sometimes, you have to set a marker and enforce it, even if the circumstances are different. Unless this deal sees us end up with Martial, we will have failed to do that (assuming we do sell Toby, anyway).

Re: the money, as I mentioned, if we spend it on Grealish, I'm not sure what the point of the extra 20m is. It didn't bring us anything special. It would have to be someone damn special, and even then, we will have been walked over by United, imo.

This Grealish thing is such a nonsense argument, I’m stunned that you still persist with it.

Grealish to me looks opportunistic - a chance to add a young, homegrown player with potential to our ranks and to take him away from a club with financial problems. It has naff all to do with selling Toby.

Let’s say we sell Toby this week and sign De Ligt, is this good? Or let’s say we keep Toby, have him sulk for a year, then sell him for 25, only De Ligt has now gone, and the next De Ligt is also gonna cost 60 mil, but we can’t afford that now, so we go for Ben Mee. Is that good? Has it been worth ‘showing the league that we aren’t a club to be asset stripped at will’?. Because the league doesn’t care what we think. It cares not whether we’ve made a stand if it leads to us shooting our selves in the foot. This is not selling Kane, Eriksen, Dele, Son, Dier to a direct rival. This is selling a player that has already been replaced, who them has performed well without, and using that cash to probably buy another top player to allow us to continue to punch above our weight, ala Sanchez.
 
This Grealish thing is such a nonsense argument, I’m stunned that you still persist with it.

Grealish to me looks opportunistic - a chance to add a young, homegrown player with potential to our ranks and to take him away from a club with financial problems. It has naff all to do with selling Toby.

We will see. This 'club with financial problems' are asking for 40m, when 20m is too much for Grealish. If he comes cheaper, great, throw him into the 25-man squad - but in that case, we would have bought him already. If on the other hand, he only comes in for 30m or so once we've sold Toby, the tradeoff is hardly worth it for a Championship attacking midfielder.

Let’s say we sell Toby this week and sign De Ligt, is this good?

Depends. Did we get Martial out of United as well?

Or let’s say we keep Toby, have him sulk for a year, then sell him for 25, only De Ligt has now gone, and the next De Ligt is also gonna cost 60 mil, but we can’t afford that now, so we go for Ben Mee. Is that good? Has it been worth ‘showing the league that we aren’t a club to be asset stripped at will’?

Yes. Because, truth is, it matters - it reinforces the precedent, not just to the league, but to our players, that moves to our rivals do not come cheap, if at all. The next De Ligt is just one player, of somewhat neglible value in the grand scheme of things - but we have many at Spurs that the clubs around us are licking their lips at the thought of acquiring.

And do you know why the next De Ligt is of questionable value? Because, in this scenario, if he decides he wants a move to City or wherever, he will agitate enough that we will end up replacing him pre-emptively and then selling him like obedient lackies to City a year later. So it isn't even planning for the future, and thus is of questionable value.

By contrast, enforcing our stance in the market will have longer-term effects on our existing players and the ones coming in that will make whatever loss we suffer from not replacing Alderweireld with a De Ligt-quality replacement worth it, imo.
 
So, you want proof that you're as full of bluster and ill-thought out opinions as you accuse others of being? Fine.

Why?

You've been proclaiming that what I've been saying has been ill-thought out and 'bluster'. But, in this case, can you not see that you've done exactly the same?

So, why? Arsenal's strategy is the same as ours right now - in fact, they probably started out on more solid foundations than we did. For all his faults, Wenger wasn't averse to spending money to ensure success - he spent big on any number of players, ranging from Henry to Lauren, Wiltord, Jeffers, Van Brockhorst and Reyes. He also created a style of play that persisted in its effectiveness right down to 2014-ish, when it finally started coming apart - for all the laughs about Arsenal's trophyless era, that 'Wengerball' approach was clinically, almost unstoppably effective when it did come off, and I challenge anyone to tell me that they weren't worried when Arsenal made the CL final in '06, or when they came within four points of the title in 07/08.

What that style of play did require to ensure success was ready-made, world-class players, capable of playing in that concentrated style. And that was what he could not acquire, simply because the finances weren't there. Additionally, what players he did develop or turn into gems were sold off to rival clubs in the same league, which weakened Arsenal and strengthened Arsenal's rivals at the same time.

This wasn't Wenger's choice - he's said it multiple times, and nothing he's done since he's had money to spend has convinced me that he was actually some Levy-esque penny-pincher all along. He's gone out and bought Sanchez, Ozil, Aubameyang, Xhaka, Mustafi and so on for big fees and big wages.

Wenger was constrained by the stadium, which is why he didn't spend money while his style was still effective. And it was, all the way up to about 2013-2014 when the pressing game finally came into fashion. But he was also constrained by losing his best players to his rivals in the same league, which doomed his attempts to keep them as the precedent set meant that they all expected domestic moves when their turns came.

That is why their story is a *perfect* comparison to our own - we need to learn from the mistakes they made during this process. And their mistakes didn't include 'keeping Wenger' - as I mentioned, this idea that he stopped being an effective manager is only true from 2014 onwards. Prior to that, he was as relevant as anyone else in the league.

But their mistakes *did* include selling to their rivals without making them bleed in return. Which we are poised to follow with Toby. So, in that sense, it is doing exactly what they did. And, with regard to selling RVP being like selling Kane, apart from the positional similarity, there's really nothing in that comparison, imo. But selling RVP and selling Toby? There are similarities there, including the contract situation, the buyer and the marker that it set in terms of signalling to every club in the league exactly what Arsenal were.



The alternative is to sell outside the league, or to impress upon the player that it's either being sold outside the league, being sold within the league but on terms that favor us (i.e, we get Martial for Toby) or staying at Spurs.

As for Walker, what's there to say? He was sold, wasn't adequately replaced, and we suffered a lowered performance for it. Nobody can really dispute that, not even the most ardent Trippier fans. Meanwhile, Walker sauntered to the title and racked up 100 points with the most dominant City team in their history. What did we do *right* there?

That was a mistake too. But in that case, Walker had personal connections with the north that limited our options. In this case, I find it extremely hard to believe that Toby would value Manchester over Paris, Munich, Madrid or Barcelona.

As for the 'standards and culture of the club', honestly, that's just not likely, imo. I'm sure Modric permanently tarnished the 'standards and culture of the club' when he ended up being our best player after his move to Chelsea was denied. Did Dier end up being a sulky so-and-so when his move to United was dismissed out of hand? No, because he knuckled down and had a good season.

At its heart, not many clubs will want a 25m, disruptive 30-year-old player who's spent a year and a half in the stands. Players have a personal incentive to avoid that sort of image (given how it impacts on their own likelihood of being transferred), and there's nothing to suggest that Toby will be happy making that mistake if we do end up keeping him.

And do bear in mind, that's only in the event that we don't sell him *at all*. Once the English window closes, there are three weeks to sell him somewhere else in Europe, and Toby may well find that Paris et al. are suddenly more attractive than Manchester.

Same thing when it comes to 'disrespecting the leading authority at the club', like it's a fudging high-school cheerleading team and everything runs on gossip and innuendo. He's a professional. Poch is a professional. The solution to 'disrespecting the leading authority at the club', is to *respect* the leading authority at the club - to make up and train as hard as possible, and to rebuild bridges. This idea that any player that disrespects Poch has to be instantly sold is just f*cking counterproductive, because it *encourages* players who want moves to be disruptive. Want a move? Great, just betray Poch and he'll immediately bench you, which will lead to you being transferred in the next window. Hell, save yourself the wait and do it while the window's open.

I feel like you are just mis remembering Wenger era Arsenal. Sanchez and Ozil were not really big, outsized fees compared to the market, first off. Ozil was an opportunistic signing because they needed to trade a player out having signed Bale. Xhaka- 25 mil. Not really mega money.

The point was though that Wenger used to be a guy that got them to overachieve consistently. Then he was a guy that got them to play at par, consistently. Then he was a guy that had them still at par, but other teams had improved so much that Wenger’s par had gone backwards. He was a guy that needed good players to achieve. He gave them freedom, he trusted them, and when they had the 3rd best team, they’d finish 3rd. When they had the 4th best team, they’d finish 4th. And when they had the 6th best team, they finished 6th.

The whole problem with Wenger era Arsenal is that they didn’t have a strategy to overachieve and eke out the additional % points that would take them punching above their weight again. Their whole strategy was spending what they could, giving those players freedom and because they couldn’t spend as much as United, Chelsea or City, they would never consistently get above them again. The club had way too much power concentrated in Wenger’s hands, and that’s why we’ve seen the moves to disperse that now.

We on the other hand, do have a strategy. It’s strategy around finances, it’s strategy around player recruitment, it’s strategy about the standards we expect and it’s strategy around the training we do, all geared towards making sure we can punch above our weight. To make players like Ben Davies, Kieran Trippier reach heights they never thought possible. To make players like Dier, Kane and Dele perform like key cogs immediately. And for players like Eriksen and Son to reach their potential. It doesn’t just happen because we sign them and they all just happen to be good, it’s the environment we create for them. It’s the standards of behaviour and consistency of performance we expect from them. And a culture is established via your actions. You set rules for the group, and adherence to those rules is rewarded (Poch has always tried to fit Dier into the team because he is a standard bearer of a relentless desire to improve, but when Poch saw those standards drop behind the scenes, he benched him) and non adherance to those rules is punished - GKN wearing his headphones rather than supporting the team, Dier putting less work in behind the scenes, Walker not waiting until the end of a title challenge to tell the club he wants to leave.

You are completely writing off this standards argument as if it’s nothing, but it’s a key component of our ability to overachieve. Arsenal didn’t have such a plan - it was give total control to Wenger and hope he takes them back on top. As such they kept performing to par while us and Liverpool, with actual plans around how to overachieve, went past them. The Modric example is irrelevant - we forced him to stay and we weren’t a team that finished above par. We weren’t a club that used relentless standards as a cog in overachieving. Dier is someone that knuckled down, but we could quite easily say to him he would get consistent pay rises at Spurs and he is years off needing to make his ‘one final big move’ (which is a real thing for footballers but not something he needed to worry about).

I would suggest that Toby and Walker are in that territory when they get their one final contract - and it’s harder to deny them that. I’d venture that had we kept them around then club they still would have trained, they still would have tried their best, but their best would no longer have been good enough. Their heads would be elsewhere. The focus for relentless improvement and consistency, of truly buying into the Poch plan and all that entails, would be gone.

Which is why it’s great we aren’t being held to random by key players that our side is built around. We have already replaced the ones that will want to go and have performed without them. This speaks to a club with good strategy, with its head screwed on, and suggests we will keep on our upward path.
 
@thfcsteff -


Sorry, are you comparing the sale of Robin Van Persie -at that point Arsenal's top striker- with Toby Alderweireld, a CB who is becoming injury prone and had little to no effect on our season last season? Just want to make sure.

Yes? What is the difference, really, in terms of intent? We are signalling availability to United, just as we did with City last season when they came for Walker. We asked for big fees, but that is utterly *meaningless* to those clubs - once availability is established, it means nothing to them what they pay as long as they get their man.

Y' see, THIS is why I say "wait until Thursday night" before getting the axe out. Man U are DESPERATELY trying to get us to cave in. I remain unconvinced we even want Martial! One thing I DO know is that unless Alderweireld has a personality reboot, I want him out of the club as I worry he could cause problems otherwise.

I am waiting. I've barely said anything so far, and outside of this issue, I intend to stay that way, mate. Signs haven't been promising at all, though.

We got great money for a player that no longer wanted to be with us, and in turn we helped bring through a player who has matured into such a good player that Southgate changed an entire SYSTEM partially to help accommodate both players!!!!! MOST of our points were dropped early doors, surprisingly when the mighty magic Toby was playing!!!!!!!! Obviously those points dropped are not all his fault -it would be childish of me to say so- but it does bear consideration that anything can be skewed to make any point. The fact is we did NOT noticeably drop off at all last season, Emirates Marketing Project simply spent bazillions more that summer as did Liverpool (who we still finished above), Arsenal (who we still finished above) and Chelski (who we still finished above). BTW, again, wait until Thursday before swinging your axe at the club mate.

We were simply not as secure at right-back as we were in 16-17 - no one can really question that, come on. Trippier was great, but he's not Kyle Walker - he's slower, physically less imposing and was roasted by wingers with pace (Sane, Martial - even Marcos Alonso got past him at multiple points in both games against Chelsea. And, even if you think Trippier was as good as Walker, we had both in 16/17 - we had only Trippier last year, and an unprepared Serge Aurier prone to mistakes.

Our points were not just dropped early doors - didn't we lose to City, lose to West Brom, draw with Watford/Soton and lose to United in the FA Cup semi just a few weeks before the end of the season? I remember it being a concentrated period which allowed Chelsea to close the gap to an uncomfortably close level.

And come on - we went from 87 points to 76, and from 2nd place to 3rd. It was still a good season, but we dropped off by the most quantifiable measures possible. That's the point of dropping off - it doesn't matter *why* it happens, it still happens. Even if it's because your rivals outspend you, you've still dropped off.

And, again, I am waiting, and I'm giving Levy, Poch and everyone at the club time. Otherwise, I would be far, far angrier, believe me.

And you know that the manager has not tried to work with the player?
Do you know that the player hasn't engaged in more than one act of "disrespect"?
Look, I'd say disagreements happen everyday at Spurs, and I'd say Poch has rowed with many, but critically, it would appear that the vast majority have found a way to make it work.
You seem to assume it is ONE incident.
Do you REALLY think Poch is either stupid or belligerent enough to make an axe-you decision based on a single action? Come on. Look at the facts surrounding Toby, and then apply some conjecture/guess-work, and you might arrive at a different conclusion.
You might not.
But it is, IMO, worth entertaining.
Anyway, I remain steadfast in hoping we get him out of the club UNLESS he does a 180 and pledges to be a professional fighting for the Tottenham cause and getting paid a fair wage for trying to do so as opposed to a greedy bastard's wage for possibly spending more time in the physic's room than anyone wants.

Right, so Toby has consistently disrespected Poch. Great, get him the f*ck out, no argument there. But in that case, why sell him to United? Why give him what he wants? Why *reward* disrespect?
 
We will see. This 'club with financial problems' are asking for 40m, when 20m is too much for Grealish. If he comes cheaper, great, throw him into the 25-man squad - but in that case, we would have bought him already. If on the other hand, he only comes in for 30m or so once we've sold Toby, the tradeoff is hardly worth it for a Championship attacking midfielder.



Depends. Did we get Martial out of United as well?



Yes. Because, truth is, it matters - it reinforces the precedent, not just to the league, but to our players, that moves to our rivals do not come cheap, if at all. The next De Ligt is just one player, of somewhat neglible value in the grand scheme of things - but we have many at Spurs that the clubs around us are licking their lips at the thought of acquiring.

And do you know why the next De Ligt is of questionable value? Because, in this scenario, if he decides he wants a move to City or wherever, he will agitate enough that we will end up replacing him pre-emptively and then selling him like obedient lackies to City a year later. So it isn't even planning for the future, and thus is of questionable value.

By contrast, enforcing our stance in the market will have longer-term effects on our existing players and the ones coming in that will make whatever loss we suffer from not replacing Alderweireld with a De Ligt-quality replacement worth it, imo.

This is why patience is required, because there is going to come a point where players won’t even need to move clubs in order to get wage increases, and the only departures we would need to fear would be once in a lifetime moves that may get offered to the likes of Eriksen, like Liverpool suffered with Coutinho and like United suffered with Ronaldo, and like Chelsea may suffer with Hazard.

We just missed it with Toby and Walker, whereby the perfect age cross over and our max ceiling were just a little out of synch. But, because we have built from solid foundation and our financial base is always able to increase, particularly with new stadium and tv money, we’re getting there. So this next generation - Sanchez, Moura, Dier, Kane, Dele - we’re just at the point where our max ceiling can stay ahead of their expectations, and hopefully we can keep it that way. And if anyone like De Ligt comes in, they would fall into that bracket too.

It just takes time. We just missed it with Toby and Walker, and Rose shat the bed. If he kept his mouth shut he maybe would have been in line to benefit from new stadium money. But we’re getting there, which is why I look at things 3-5 years out. If we keep doing what we’re doing, and if we track our progress so far under Levy, we’ll keep making the right steps. And the new stadium is going to help massively with it. We spent about 9 years almost consistently as a 5th/6th placed team (and probably would have had more CL had Chelsea and City got bought). This time we may need to spend a few years as a top 4 team before making another step up to be true consistent challengers. But this time if anything the macro effects are on our side - everyone has been bought so that can’t pull as back, and the stadium is going to allow us to accelerate the wages we can offer, which will help us keep our key players longer.

Quite honestly we’re unlucky to not have won a trophy under Poch but that will come if we keep in this vein. Overall though we continue to be on an upward curve. Toby going doesn’t change that, just like Bale and Modric didn’t, because unlike Arsenal’s constant being Wenger, ours is Levy, and his plan is working. Combined with Poch’s influence on the football side, we have two people with a plan on how to continue to punch above our weight.

And this will negate the need to ‘putting down a marker’ for the other clubs. If a club feels they can make a deal, they’ll try. If an agent feels he can get his player out, he’ll do it. And if a player wants one last big contract, he’ll push for it. But as time goes on we will be in a better position to resist all of those things for the players that are now coming up with us. Just requires patience.
 
@thfcsteff -




Yes? What is the difference, really, in terms of intent? We are signalling availability to United, just as we did with City last season when they came for Walker. We asked for big fees, but that is utterly *meaningless* to those clubs - once availability is established, it means nothing to them what they pay as long as they get their man.



I am waiting. I've barely said anything so far, and outside of this issue, I intend to stay that way, mate. Signs haven't been promising at all, though.



We were simply not as secure at right-back as we were in 16-17 - no one can really question that, come on. Trippier was great, but he's not Kyle Walker - he's slower, physically less imposing and was roasted by wingers with pace (Sane, Martial - even Marcos Alonso got past him at multiple points in both games against Chelsea. And, even if you think Trippier was as good as Walker, we had both in 16/17 - we had only Trippier last year, and an unprepared Serge Aurier prone to mistakes.

Our points were not just dropped early doors - didn't we lose to City, lose to West Brom, draw with Watford/Soton and lose to United in the FA Cup semi just a few weeks before the end of the season? I remember it being a concentrated period which allowed Chelsea to close the gap to an uncomfortably close level.

And come on - we went from 87 points to 76, and from 2nd place to 3rd. It was still a good season, but we dropped off by the most quantifiable measures possible. That's the point of dropping off - it doesn't matter *why* it happens, it still happens. Even if it's because your rivals outspend you, you've still dropped off.

And, again, I am waiting, and I'm giving Levy, Poch and everyone at the club time. Otherwise, I would be far, far angrier, believe me.



Right, so Toby has consistently disrespected Poch. Great, get him the f*ck out, no argument there. But in that case, why sell him to United? Why give him what he wants? Why *reward* disrespect?

Reckon our drop off in points total had anything to with adjusting to Wembley? Maybe Walker a bit, but then you have to judge would he have been the same man kept we kept him? And would other players have been the same men seeing a player not fully focussed on relentless improvement day in day out?

As for your bottom point, why should we suffer? If United have 60M burning a hole and need a CB, they are going to buy one. Just like City were going to buy a right back regardless. We can either use that money to improve 2 positions with potentially better quality players (although we might take a year or two to bear that potential out) or we can take less money and maybe improve only one position with a lesser quality player, or we keep the player and risk his attitude.

This is all part of being patient, and hopefully not something we have to go through too many more times as our wage budget increases. But as I said, it takes time and it looks like we just missed it with Walker and Toby due to their age.
 
Equation is probably this:

Difference in quality between Spurs and United if Spurs sell Toby to United and sign top class players in place = X
Difference between Spurs and United squad quality if we sell abroad and United sign someone else = Y
Difference of Spurs relative to other teams if we keep Toby, United sign someone else = Z.

We’ve obviously calculated that X is smaller than Y, because we can benefit more with the money they give us. And we’ve also calculated that X is smaller than Z too, probably based on the standards argument.

United will sign someone else if not Toby, so they will strengthen regardless. The question is then whether we can get good money for a player who is effectively a back up, and sign potentially 2 difference makers in place. Kind of like how Walker lead to Sanchez + Aurier (even if it takes a season for them to fully settle, it could be the right long term move). Particularly when Toby isn’t going to be the same player, or the same positive influence on the squad (where everyone needs to be a positive influence on everyone else) if he stays.
 
And I think Southampton really are a relevant case study here. They put down a marker, they made a stand. And were rewarded with a relegation battle as a new manager struggled to get enthusiasm for his ideas when one of their best players clearly didn’t want to be there. The Southampton Chairman even pretty much apologised for the atmosphere their stance caused, so this stuff matters. Not that we will be in a relegation battle, but that we will play below potential.
 
I feel like you are just mis remembering Wenger era Arsenal. Sanchez and Ozil were not really big, outsized fees compared to the market, first off. Ozil was an opportunistic signing because they needed to trade a player out having signed Bale. Xhaka- 25 mil. Not really mega money.

The point was though that Wenger used to be a guy that got them to overachieve consistently. Then he was a guy that got them to play at par, consistently. Then he was a guy that had them still at par, but other teams had improved so much that Wenger’s par had gone backwards. He was a guy that needed good players to achieve. He gave them freedom, he trusted them, and when they had the 3rd best team, they’d finish 3rd. When they had the 4th best team, they’d finish 4th. And when they had the 6th best team, they finished 6th.

The whole problem with Wenger era Arsenal is that they didn’t have a strategy to overachieve and eke out the additional % points that would take them punching above their weight again. Their whole strategy was spending what they could, giving those players freedom and because they couldn’t spend as much as United, Chelsea or City, they would never consistently get above them again. The club had way too much power concentrated in Wenger’s hands, and that’s why we’ve seen the moves to disperse that now.

Sanchez and Ozil were both bought for 40 million plus, if I remember -*shattering* Arsenal's transfer record (doubling it, iirc) in consecutive summers, as well as inflating their wage budgets into the 175k - 200k ranges almost immediately. Similarly, Mustafi was a 35-40m signing, as was Xhaka. After them came Lacazette for 50m+, and then Aubameyang for close to 60m.

Wenger was not hesitant to spend because of some philosophical compulsion. Necessity forced him into his approach during the lean years.

As for Wenger and getting players to overachieve, then getting them to on par, and then underachieving, you're severely underestimating the effect transfers had on that era, imo. They made a profit of something like 40m in transfers during that eight-year period, and their players were mostly cheap buys from obscure places - occasional splurges like on Arshavin were surprising precisely *because* they were the deviation from the trend of cheap punts turning out good (like Adebayor, Sagna, Clichy, Nasri, Hleb, Rosicky, Fabregas, Koscielny, Eduardo and so on).

Wenger overachieved with that squad just getting them to 4th, never mind the title challenges and 3rd place finishes that they had during those years. What he did turning cheap youngsters into top-class players and making a 40m profit in the interval doesn't indicate 'on par'.

It indicates overachievement, and performances at least equivalent to Poch's performances here, imo. With the same MO.

And, unfortunately, with likely the same results that we will have, given those similarities. Nothing won, and a club now no closer to the title than they were when they *started* building the Emirates - indeed, a good deal further away.

We on the other hand, do have a strategy. It’s strategy around finances, it’s strategy around player recruitment, it’s strategy about the standards we expect and it’s strategy around the training we do, all geared towards making sure we can punch above our weight. To make players like Ben Davies, Kieran Trippier reach heights they never thought possible. To make players like Dier, Kane and Dele perform like key cogs immediately. And for players like Eriksen and Son to reach their potential. It doesn’t just happen because we sign them and they all just happen to be good, it’s the environment we create for them. It’s the standards of behaviour and consistency of performance we expect from them. And a culture is established via your actions. You set rules for the group, and adherence to those rules is rewarded (Poch has always tried to fit Dier into the team because he is a standard bearer of a relentless desire to improve, but when Poch saw those standards drop behind the scenes, he benched him) and non adherance to those rules is punished - GKN wearing his headphones rather than supporting the team, Dier putting less work in behind the scenes, Walker not waiting until the end of a title challenge to tell the club he wants to leave.

I'd argue that this isn't that different to what Arsenal did - in both cases, to punch above our weight in the context of a new stadium, we adopted the tactic we felt would suit us best. In Poch's case, it's relentless improvement, and in Wenger's case, it was the development of young players into stars (which in itself involved a good deal of relentless improvement, I'm sure you'd agree). It worked for Arsenal, but only in that it kept them around the CL places - and the danger there is that our tactic, if it does involve selling our stars to our rivals... isn't all that different, imo.

Again, the 'soft' Wenger excusing failure and bad performances only really became a thing after 2013/2014, when his relevance also started declining as the Poch-era managers began entering the league. Before that, his system produced stars, and what players *were* coddled were excused on account of Wenger's 'loyalty' to his charges - which is possibly where Poch has the advantage over him now.

And remember, for every player that upped their performance after joining us, there's likely one that couldn't. For every Kane, there's a Soldado and a Janssen - for every Davies, there's a Fazio, and for every Mason and Bentaleb, there's a Paulinho and a Stambouli (GHod, what a cop-out that signing was). And, at some point, turning punts into stars will yield diminishing returns, if it hasn't started to already.

Our strategy works in getting us into the CL places, but it isn't some perfect plan that will result in endless improvement. It has a glass ceiling that even Poch has spoken to - one that we will eventually have to confront, either with cold hard cash or with acceptance of our 'place' in the order of things.

You are completely writing off this standards argument as if it’s nothing, but it’s a key component of our ability to overachieve. Arsenal didn’t have such a plan - it was give total control to Wenger and hope he takes them back on top. As such they kept performing to par while us and Liverpool, with actual plans around how to overachieve, went past them. The Modric example is irrelevant - we forced him to stay and we weren’t a team that finished above par. We weren’t a club that used relentless standards as a cog in overachieving. Dier is someone that knuckled down, but we could quite easily say to him he would get consistent pay rises at Spurs and he is years off needing to make his ‘one final big move’ (which is a real thing for footballers but not something he needed to worry about).

Us and Liverpool went past them because we have relevant modern managers in an age where their tactics are perfectly suited to the contemporary zeitgeist. Essentially, post 2014.

Again, it's different eras. If Poch had tried his hard-pressing football and relentless improvement in 2007, I'm not sure how effective it would have been given the way football still was at the time - with an abundance of lazy strikers and No.10s, few modern training tools or practices and antiquated performance management methods.

But I'm not sure you could ascribe that to some substantive difference in our overall *strategies* in terms of targeting winning the title eventually. You could if we decide, f*ck United, we're selling Toby elsewhere. If not...well, the similarities stand, imo for the reasons I've outlined above.
 
Reckon our drop off in points total had anything to with adjusting to Wembley?

Sure. But it also had a bit to do with Walker leaving - as I've indicated by providing concrete examples where Trippier was done by attackers with pace and skill (and by Marcos Alonso as well).

Maybe Walker a bit, but then you have to judge would he have been the same man kept we kept him? And would other players have been the same men seeing a player not fully focussed on relentless improvement day in day out?

Who knows? As for seeing a player not fully focused on relentless improvement, I doubt it would have made a big difference given that Toby was already around, grumbling and unhappy, from November onwards.

As for your bottom point, why should we suffer? If United have 60M burning a hole and need a CB, they are going to buy one. Just like City were going to buy a right back regardless. We can either use that money to improve 2 positions with potentially better quality players (although we might take a year or two to bear that potential out) or we can take less money and maybe improve only one position with a lesser quality player, or we keep the player and risk his attitude.

Right, so let them buy someone else if they don't want to make a deal by which we can extract our pound of flesh. Again, we do not benefit from this trade, imo - we get 60m, but money means absolutely nothing to United and doesn't harm them in any way. Strengthening our rival and giving the impression that we are open to selling, however, will directly damage us. Whereas them buying some other poor sod will strengthen them, but will not necessarily harm us except in the hypothetical scenario where we badly require the extra 20m or whatever that United are offering versus what European clubs would offer - which, looking at our transfer business, seems unlikely.

This is all part of being patient, and hopefully not something we have to go through too many more times as our wage budget increases. But as I said, it takes time and it looks like we just missed it with Walker and Toby due to their age.

*This* is really interesting, and food for thought - this idea that we're in between windows, and that we're closer to the one in which we can pay our players the market rate than we are to the one in which we can't. If you'd just led with this, five hours would be diverted into this line of thought. :)

But there is a problem with it, imo. Namely, that we will always be unable to pay our players what other clubs can. United can pay Sanchez *500k* a week, or thereabouts - 118 million over the length of his contract.

We cannot do that, stadium or no stadium. And make no mistake - the oil barons can do that too.

Arsenal can't do that either. So are we really about to enter the age in which setting down our red lines and refusing to sell domestically become unnecessary? I don't know if that's the case.
 
Sanchez and Ozil were both bought for 40 million plus, if I remember -*shattering* Arsenal's transfer record (doubling it, iirc) in consecutive summers, as well as inflating their wage budgets into the 175k - 200k ranges almost immediately. Similarly, Mustafi was a 35-40m signing, as was Xhaka. After them came Lacazette for 50m+, and then Aubameyang for close to 60m.

Wenger was not hesitant to spend because of some philosophical compulsion. Necessity forced him into his approach during the lean years.

As for Wenger and getting players to overachieve, then getting them to on par, and then underachieving, you're severely underestimating the effect transfers had on that era, imo. They made a profit of something like 40m in transfers during that eight-year period, and their players were mostly cheap buys from obscure places - occasional splurges like on Arshavin were surprising precisely *because* they were the deviation from the trend of cheap punts turning out good (like Adebayor, Sagna, Clichy, Nasri, Hleb, Rosicky, Fabregas, Koscielny, Eduardo and so on).

Wenger overachieved with that squad just getting them to 4th, never mind the title challenges and 3rd place finishes that they had during those years. What he did turning cheap youngsters into top-class players and making a 40m profit in the interval doesn't indicate 'on par'.

It indicates overachievement, and performances at least equivalent to Poch's performances here, imo. With the same MO.

And, unfortunately, with likely the same results that we will have, given those similarities. Nothing won, and a club now no closer to the title than they were when they *started* building the Emirates - indeed, a good deal further away.



I'd argue that this isn't that different to what Arsenal did - in both cases, to punch above our weight in the context of a new stadium, we adopted the tactic we felt would suit us best. In Poch's case, it's relentless improvement, and in Wenger's case, it was the development of young players into stars (which in itself involved a good deal of relentless improvement, I'm sure you'd agree). It worked for Arsenal, but only in that it kept them around the CL places - and the danger there is that our tactic, if it does involve selling our stars to our rivals... isn't all that different, imo.

Again, the 'soft' Wenger excusing failure and bad performances only really became a thing after 2013/2014, when his relevance also started declining as the Poch-era managers began entering the league. Before that, his system produced stars, and what players *were* coddled were excused on account of Wenger's 'loyalty' to his charges - which is possibly where Poch has the advantage over him now.

And remember, for every player that upped their performance after joining us, there's likely one that couldn't. For every Kane, there's a Soldado and a Janssen - for every Davies, there's a Fazio, and for every Mason and Bentaleb, there's a Paulinho and a Stambouli (GHod, what a cop-out that signing was). And, at some point, turning punts into stars will yield diminishing returns, if it hasn't started to already.

Our strategy works in getting us into the CL places, but it isn't some perfect plan that will result in endless improvement. It has a glass ceiling that even Poch has spoken to - one that we will eventually have to confront, either with cold hard cash or with acceptance of our 'place' in the order of things.



Us and Liverpool went past them because we have relevant modern managers in an age where their tactics are perfectly suited to the contemporary zeitgeist. Essentially, post 2014.

Again, it's different eras. If Poch had tried his hard-pressing football and relentless improvement in 2007, I'm not sure how effective it would have been given the way football still was at the time - with an abundance of lazy strikers and No.10s, few modern training tools or practices and antiquated performance management methods.

But I'm not sure you could ascribe that to some substantive difference in our overall *strategies* in terms of targeting winning the title eventually. You could if we decide, f*ck United, we're selling Toby elsewhere. If not...well, the similarities stand, imo for the reasons I've outlined above.

Not sure how I’ve gotten into Wenger, but again I have to call flimflam. Over achieving most years? Has done as well as Poch had done? No way. They always had the 3rd or 4th best team and always finished 3rd or 4th. When they had the 6th best team they finished 6th. He was a genius, then an insurance policy for top 4, then he became a problem. Yes, tactical systems came in that he didn’t keep up with, but that’s only part of it. He gave players freedom and didn’t have them overachieving, or improving beyond recognition.

Anyway, we just aren’t Arsenal. We have a guy in Levy that’s worked the finances so we’ve punched above our weight. And we’ve had a guy in Poch that helps us punch above our weight on the pitch. Part tactically, part shifting the culture of the club. Part fitness. Part clever signings and being ahead of the curve so we’re never held at gun point for a key player. Standards have meant we’ve punched above our weight - just not having that Arsenal we’re doing similar at any point from 2007 onwards really.

I just don’t know how they can be compared. United signing RVP was a direct, balls-on-the-table move from Fergie to say, ‘I’m going
to win the league this year and I’m going to weaken a rival to do it’. There was no plan around Arsenal extracting maximum value. No plan around them doing something with that money. The contract had run down and they had no choice. They were on the back foot all the way along.

We aren’t on the back foot. Arsenal quite simply didn’t act with our foresight. We are turning selling Toby into an advantage for us - we’ll get maximum value, and we’ve reinforced the standards and consistency expected because the squad already know they don’t need him. We’re on the front foot. This is not the same thing at all.

I don’t know that we have a grand plan to win the league one day. I don’t know how anyone can make that plan. But I think we do act in order to continually improve, in the long term. And the trend under Levy backs that up. It requires being smarter, getting ahead of the game and turning situations to our advantage. The best negotiation point in the Toby deal was signing Sanchez last summer. We can’t change other clubs circling round our players or having more money, or players getting older and wanting payday. But we can act to ensure our backs aren’t up against the wall and that we are in control. Whatever happens with Toby, we will be because we future proofed it.
 
@DubaiSpur Yes - Toby sulking from November onwards. But also being dropped - reinforcing to the rest of the squad what is expected of them. Turning it to our advantage.

As for United always being able to pay more, I’m not really concerned about that. It’s just a fact that they ultimately can, but they only paid that much for Sanchez to stop him joining City, who decided squad harmony was more important than signing him for ridiculous money. So even City make those kinds of decisions too.

There’s very few players that will deserve 500k and for the most part, we will reduce the amount of times our rivals can offer more money as long as keep improving our financial base. If they want to pay literally obscene money that even oil sheikhs don’t want to match, more power to them.
 
Not sure how I’ve gotten into Wenger, but again I have to call flimflam. Over achieving most years? Has done as well as Poch had done? No way. They always had the 3rd or 4th best team and always finished 3rd or 4th. When they had the 6th best team they finished 6th. He was a genius, then an insurance policy for top 4, then he became a problem. Yes, tactical systems came in that he didn’t keep up with, but that’s only part of it. He gave players freedom and didn’t have them overachieving, or improving beyond recognition.

Anyway, we just aren’t Arsenal. We have a guy in Levy that’s worked the finances so we’ve punched above our weight. And we’ve had a guy in Poch that helps us punch above our weight on the pitch. Part tactically, part shifting the culture of the club. Part fitness. Part clever signings and being ahead of the curve so we’re never held at gun point for a key player. Standards have meant we’ve punched above our weight - just not having that Arsenal we’re doing similar at any point from 2007 onwards really.

I think people actually overestimate the levels of the teams he had back then.

http://www.skysports.com/football/tottenham-vs-arsenal/teams/245410

This their team and our team from 2011/2012.

Our team was better than theirs, in every way - from the first team to the bench and beyond. They had Alex Song at center-back and Francis Coquelin in midfield, for Christ's sake.

They still finished ahead of us. Likewise, this is their team from 07/08 -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/7368675.stm

That Everton team and their team wasn't that far apart.

They've had good teams, and Wenger has underutilized them (as he did for the last four years). But he wasn't just a status quo manager whose performance depended on the quality of players he had. Far from it, imo. He was a washed-up crank in the end, but he had a long period where he did a lot with often very little.

As for not being Arsenal, yes, we're not shiftless nomads, so we win by default and will always win by default. But the advantages we're listing now (modern, progressive manager who turns ordinary players into good ones, clever chairman, etc.)...all of them were also listed by Arsenal fans as reasons for optimism back then. Wenger was a legendary coach who had won a title unbeaten and revolutionized English football, David Dein and the board were canny geniuses who had outdone United over multiple years while having fewer resources to work with, f*cked Spurs over on Lasagnagate, moved Arsenal into 'the best stadium in Europe', and so on, and so forth.

It sounds very familiar, is all. And then they became a shop window club that sold their players to whichever club threw a bid their way.

I just don’t know how they can be compared. United signing RVP was a direct, balls-on-the-table move from Fergie to say, ‘I’m going
to win the league this year and I’m going to weaken a rival to do it’. There was no plan around Arsenal extracting maximum value. No plan around them doing something with that money. The contract had run down and they had no choice. They were on the back foot all the way along.

We aren’t on the back foot. Arsenal quite simply didn’t act with our foresight. We are turning selling Toby into an advantage for us - we’ll get maximum value, and we’ve reinforced the standards and consistency expected because the squad already know they don’t need him. We’re on the front foot. This is not the same thing at all.

Toby will improve United - a lot. Maybe not to league winning levels, but he will improve them. And the side-effect of them buying Toby is that the squad will get just a little bit more comfortable with the idea that the club will sell to our rivals, if only those players kick up a bit of a fuss - normalizing that idea within our squad will be detrimental to us as well, I'd argue.

Of course, everyone understands that we will extract 'maximum value' - financial value. But money ,as mentioned, is utterly worthless to United - in the future, they will give us whatever we ask for and laugh as they take our best players, safe in the realization that we won't be able to replace them for however much money they give us.

The way to extract maximum value is to take something valuable from them, not something they don't care about. That is Anthony Martial, a player they *really* don't want to lose to a league rival.

If they want to set a precedent, make sure it goes both ways, because otherwise it is a similarly balls-on-the-table move from them.

I don’t know that we have a grand plan to win the league one day. I don’t know how anyone can make that plan. But I think we do act in order to continually improve, in the long term. And the trend under Levy backs that up. It requires being smarter, getting ahead of the game and turning situations to our advantage. The best negotiation point in the Toby deal was signing Sanchez last summer. We can’t change other clubs circling round our players or having more money, or players getting older and wanting payday. But we can act to ensure our backs aren’t up against the wall and that we are in control. Whatever happens with Toby, we will be because we future proofed it.

We will see how we've future proofed it in the coming days. I hope and pray that it isn't by selling him for cash and then buying Grealish or something.
 
@DubaiSpur

As for United always being able to pay more, I’m not really concerned about that. It’s just a fact that they ultimately can, but they only paid that much for Sanchez to stop him joining City, who decided squad harmony was more important than signing him for ridiculous money. So even City make those kinds of decisions too.

So what, though? If City are interested in Kane, or Eriksen, or Alli, do you not think United will pull the same move again to gazump them again? They can still do it, and will be able to do it with just one more tractor sponsorship to cover the cost.
It won't be a world where we don't have to set red lines, I think - we will still need them, because United and City can and will still gazump us.

There’s very few players that will deserve 500k and for the most part, we will reduce the amount of times our rivals can offer more money as long as keep improving our financial base. If they want to pay literally obscene money that even oil sheikhs don’t want to match, more power to them.

I'm sure someone said that about the first 1k a week player as well, and so on, and so forth. I'm not convinced that this wage inflation will end.
 
@thfcsteff -

Yes? What is the difference, really, in terms of intent? We are signalling availability to United, just as we did with City last season when they came for Walker. We asked for big fees, but that is utterly *meaningless* to those clubs - once availability is established, it means nothing to them what they pay as long as they get their man.

I am waiting. I've barely said anything so far, and outside of this issue, I intend to stay that way, mate. Signs haven't been promising at all, though.

We were simply not as secure at right-back as we were in 16-17 - no one can really question that, come on. Trippier was great, but he's not Kyle Walker - he's slower, physically less imposing and was roasted by wingers with pace (Sane, Martial - even Marcos Alonso got past him at multiple points in both games against Chelsea. And, even if you think Trippier was as good as Walker, we had both in 16/17 - we had only Trippier last year, and an unprepared Serge Aurier prone to mistakes.

Our points were not just dropped early doors - didn't we lose to City, lose to West Brom, draw with Watford/Soton and lose to United in the FA Cup semi just a few weeks before the end of the season? I remember it being a concentrated period which allowed Chelsea to close the gap to an uncomfortably close level.

And come on - we went from 87 points to 76, and from 2nd place to 3rd. It was still a good season, but we dropped off by the most quantifiable measures possible. That's the point of dropping off - it doesn't matter *why* it happens, it still happens. Even if it's because your rivals outspend you, you've still dropped off.

And, again, I am waiting, and I'm giving Levy, Poch and everyone at the club time. Otherwise, I would be far, far angrier, believe me.

Right, so Toby has consistently disrespected Poch. Great, get him the f*ck out, no argument there. But in that case, why sell him to United? Why give him what he wants? Why *reward* disrespect?


OK mate.

Honestly, I cannot argue with either that or you.

Your commitment to negative projections, spun-negative memories and a negative outcome in the near and further futures is both breath-taking and curiously intriguing. I think the capper for me is that you actually said you are "waiting" and have "barely said anything - outside (of) this issue"...
 
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