Toby Alderweireld

[ricky2tricky4city]

Let's not forget if Toby goes and we had yet to sign a replacement, the 3 at the back option is compromised massively.

I think Dier needs many a game at CH before he begins to look reliable there. His concentration and awareness (of the type of player he is up against) needs to go up a few levels.

We may get the Ajax kid but he is still 18, so no guarantees. Does he play in a 3 at Ajax?.

Toby for another year just feels good for transitioning the defence.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Next year we won't have a choice where he goes and i wonder if the same people saying we should hold on to him regardless would be singing a different tune if he leaves for Chelsea or Arsenal in a cut price deal

Good point. If he has free choice of the 25m bidders, which I assume he would. Although he is not a free agent...so you never know?

 

[AdamB]

Let's not forget if Toby goes and we had yet to sign a replacement, the 3 at the back option is compromised massively.

I think Dier needs many a game at CH before he begins to look reliable there. His concentration and awareness (of the type of player he is up against) needs to go up a few levels.

We may get the Ajax kid but he is still 18, so no guarantees. Does he play in a 3 at Ajax?.

Toby for another year just feels good for transitioning the defence.

Dier should just be played where he's best - as a DM. He gives us good flexibility but personally I think that viewing him as a centre half means you end up one player short and weaker.

 

[Robspur12]

This buy out clause keeps getting talked about but is it all in favour of one party? Would levy agree to it being so?

Didn't Liverpool have a 40 million buy out clause for Suarez when Arsenal bid £1 over the 40 mill? They were able to turn down the Arsenal bid. Of course that may have been because Arsenal are not a particularly attractive club to go to and Suarez turned them down.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Dier should just be played where he's best - as a DM. He gives us good flexibility but personally I think that viewing him as a centre half means you end up one player short and weaker.

Oh I agree. Just pointing out that with Toby gone, Dier is a big candidate to play as the third CH if we go 3 at the back. A system that serves as well (as does 2 at the back) and needs to be a live option.

I think Poch said he sees Dier as a CH but I agree with you, DM is where he is best. Although he is the ultimate utility player that all teams wish for.

 

[Ade's folks are ok really]

I think some of the CL games this season exposed the weaknesses we have at CB should Toby go.

We cannot seriously think to challenge the top 3 again and put a worthy CL run together with Jan, Sanch and either Eric or Foyth at the back. And sticking with just 2 CBs leaves us massively short should there be an injury, not to mention the restrictions it puts on the full backs.
I've always thought Walker (now Tripps) and Rose looked far more threatening when the shackles were off to really bomb forward, knowing we had 3 CBs plus either Dier or Big Vic to cover them.

 

[Robspur12]

It is one thing to make a move and sign a top talent who might well be as much about pocket as project. It is another to see someone who was part of your project, who you built a relationship with and trusted, who you felt you made a super-fair offer to which was accepted, turn around and then pull a fast one. If it is true -and I folior one think it is- then trust has been broken. I want to move on, I want him sold, I want Poch to get De Ligt or whoever and I want us to stop pouring energy into Toby. We spent most of the season without him and finished third. We will be fine. FWIW I believe we will see Jan get a bump on his deal for sure.

Steff I don't subscribe to the we finished 3rd without him so we will not miss him argument. The season before when he played consistently alongside Verts and Walker we finished second with 9 more points. There is an argument that we not as good without him and Walker last season.

I agree if he's reneged on a handshake then that is not good as no one one is bigger than the club. However, in his mind his stock may at its highest and most people would look to get the best deal possible for themselves and why not? In business, negotiations should not be conducted in a personal. fashion. I expect Poch and Levy see it that way too. That is probably not the reason he is not getting game time and I am sure they would be happy for him to sign the contract now.

Losing Toby represents another major player leaving the club. It often feels like we take one step forward and 2 back. It's harder to take when we are so close to winning trophies.

Of course we have survived the loss of major players before, bigger ones than Toby, but there is no doubt it puts us back a little every time we lose them. I understand this is the reality of where we are as a club but imo it has affected our ability to win major trophies, a stick non spurs fans beat us with.

So I think his loss will hit us harder in the short term unless he is suitably replaced and not with another inexperienced defender.

 

[JerusalemMan]

I think Toby was foolish and greedy...well, his representatives. Van Dijk is how much younger? How much fitter? Like Rose before him, Toby failed to see how good it was. 130k a week? With his injury record over the last two years? Poch is not being precious, he is apparently sticking to what he has always relied upon -decency and trust. I think it would be unsound business to bow to him.

Toby is how much better?

 

[DeleHarry]

Steff I don't subscribe to the we finished 3rd without him so we will not miss him argument. The season before when he played consistently alongside Verts and Walker we finished second with 9 more points. There is an argument that we not as good without him and Walker last season.

I agree if he's reneged on a handshake then that is not good as no one one is bigger than the club. However, in his mind his stock may at its highest and most people would look to get the best deal possible for themselves and why not? In business, negotiations should not be conducted in a personal. fashion. I expect Poch and Levy see it that way too. That is probably not the reason he is not getting game time and I am sure they would be happy for him to sign the contract now.

Losing Toby represents another major player leaving the club. It often feels like we take one step forward and 2 back. It's harder to take when we are so close to winning trophies.

Of course we have survived the loss of major players before, bigger ones than Toby, but there is no doubt it puts us back a little every time we lose them. I understand this is the reality of where we are as a club but imo it has affected our ability to win major trophies, a stick non spurs fans beat us with.

So I think his loss will hit us harder in the short term unless he is suitably replaced and not with another inexperienced defender.

I agree with your overall point that losing experience like Toby and Walker sets us back and we are having to catch up in effect to stand still, but regarding last season it's pretty remarkable we finished 3rd and only 9 points off the previous season total whilst being without Walker, Toby AND having to play out home games in a foreign stadium. That 9 point difference is more than likely due to how exceptional we were at WHL in our last season there

Actually it is, I just checked. 2016/17 we gained 53 points from a possible 57, and last season 43 from 57 available.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Steff I don't subscribe to the we finished 3rd without him so we will not miss him argument. The season before when he played consistently alongside Verts and Walker we finished second with 9 more points. There is an argument that we not as good without him and Walker last season.

I agree if he's reneged on a handshake then that is not good as no one one is bigger than the club. However, in his mind his stock may at its highest and most people would look to get the best deal possible for themselves and why not? In business, negotiations should not be conducted in a personal. fashion. I expect Poch and Levy see it that way too. That is probably not the reason he is not getting game time and I am sure they would be happy for him to sign the contract now.

Losing Toby represents another major player leaving the club. It often feels like we take one step forward and 2 back. It's harder to take when we are so close to winning trophies.

Of course we have survived the loss of major players before, bigger ones than Toby, but there is no doubt it puts us back a little every time we lose them. I understand this is the reality of where we are as a club but imo it has affected our ability to win major trophies, a stick non spurs fans beat us with.

So I think his loss will hit us harder in the short term unless he is suitably replaced and not with another inexperienced defender.

I’d argue that the dropped point came at the start of the season (Swansea, WBA, arguably Chelsea at home) where Toby played. And it was more a failure to break down poor teams than an inability to defend against good ones. With our hardest run of the season playing Sanchez we did an amazing job.

We’re it not for Wembley we probably would have got second again, with or without Toby.

 

[Robspur12]

I agree with your overall point that losing experience like Toby and Walker sets us back and we are having to catch up in effect to stand still, but regarding last season it's pretty remarkable we finished 3rd and only 9 points off the previous season total whilst being without Walker, Toby AND having to play out home games in a foreign stadium. That 9 point difference is more than likely due to how exceptional we were at WHL in our last season there

Actually it is, I just checked. 2016/17 we gained 53 points from a possible 57, and last season 43 from 57 available.

What's the difference in goals conceded between the two seasons? There was definitely a feeling that we were not as defensively tight.

 

[Robspur12]

I’d argue that the dropped point came at the start of the season (Swansea, WBA, arguably Chelsea at home) where Toby played. And it was more a failure to break down poor teams than an inability to defend against good ones. With our hardest run of the season playing Sanchez we did an amazing job.

We’re it not for Wembley we probably would have got second again, with or without Toby.

Of course. Sanchez did very well but there were definitely key games where the 2 of Trippier and Sanchez were exposed in a way that Davies and Verts were not. I put that down to Trippier not being as defensively sound as Walker and Sanchez just being inexperienced?

 

[DeleHarry]

What's the difference in goals conceded between the two seasons? There was definitely a feeling that we were not as defensively tight.

Totals, home and away

2016/17........86 scored 26 conceded
2017/18........74 scored 36 conceded

Breaking it down the difference was again primarily due to playing at Wembley compared to the final season at WHL. 7 less a scored and 7 more conceded at Wembley

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Of course. Sanchez did very well but there were definitely key games where the 2 of Trippier and Sanchez were exposed in a way that Davies and Verts were not. I put that down to Trippier not being as defensively sound as Walker and Sanchez just being inexperienced?

Which ones? I can think of Swansea, WBA and Burnley at home, silly dropped points that I think Toby played in. United away Toby played. Chelsea at home I’m including in our Wembley adjustment period because we lost a game we probably wouldn’t have lost at WHL (also Wanyama playing injured was probably more of a factor in that game)

Overall I think we’d be fine without him. Similarly if we can keep him on 130k and we don’t need to sell him to fund other business / we don’t want to sell him to make the ultimate transition easier when he and JV are older, I think we should keep him.

But I think we showed in the biggest games, Sanchez was more than good enough, and will be better for the experience he had this season in the coming one because of it.

 

[thfcsteff]

Of course. Sanchez did very well but there were definitely key games where the 2 of Trippier and Sanchez were exposed in a way that Davies and Verts were not. I put that down to Trippier not being as defensively sound as Walker and Sanchez just being inexperienced?

You can also put it down to Trippier and Sanchez learning to play together. Walker and Alder were tight together.

I can see I am in a minority here (BTW Brain, mate, not ALL “top table business” involves reneging on a deal, in fact I’s say his reps sold him out...he will not get 180k anywhere IMO) as I believe we are best to move on given the breakdown.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Robspur12]

Which ones? I can think of Swansea, WBA and Burnley at home, silly dropped points that I think Toby played in. United away Toby played. Chelsea at home I’m including in our Wembley adjustment period because we lost a game we probably wouldn’t have lost at WHL (also Wanyama playing injured was probably more of a factor in that game)

Overall I think we’d be fine without him. Similarly if we can keep him on 130k and we don’t need to sell him to fund other business / we don’t want to sell him to make the ultimate transition easier when he and JV are older, I think we should keep him.

But I think we showed in the biggest games, Sanchez was more than good enough, and will be better for the experience he had this season in the coming one because of it.

Two games in the league where imo we missed Toby's experience were City home and away, defensively, especially on the right side we were a shambles. Away from the League vs Juventus in the second game defensive errors cost us. For their second goal the Juve player walked through the right side of our midfield and defence completely unchallenged. Against Utd in the Cup, again defensive errors cost us. Imho we missed Toby's ability see danger and snuff it out before it became a problem whereas with Sanchez I had the feeling he was more reactive and could do with learning from Toby. We missed his ability to organise the defence and his calm assurance which transmits to his fellow defenders.

Offensively we also missed his threat from set pieces in the opposition half and his long progressive passes from the back.

Don't get me wrong I think Sanchez is an excellent defender but I don't think he is quite at the level of Toby yet.

Additionally the three of Toby Sanchez and Verts at the back for the big games is imo a world class combination.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You can also put it down to Trippier and Sanchez learning to play together. Walker and Alder were tight together.

I can see I am in a minority here (BTW Brain, mate, not ALL “top table business” involves reneging on a deal, in fact I’s say his reps sold him out...he will not get 180k anywhere IMO) as I believe we are best to move on given the breakdown.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I'm not saying all top table biz revolves reneging on a deal, but I am saying we are now going to be dealing with players looking at the top tier of clubs, seeing what they are paying, and having a choice about whether to compete. And there will come a point in some of these evaluations where purely signing players because they believe in the project isn't going to be the deciding factor for them anymore. If Poch would happily keep Toby but looks upon the fact that he's got one last chance to get a big contract and is trying to get one as some kind of black mark, then I'm not sure I'd agree with the approach. He didn't sign anything - and maybe you know something to the extent to which terms were 'agreed', but for me it's fair that he sees if he can get a better deal elsewhere. Players at the top of their game will decide they should get paid as much as they can, and will look at their peers to decide whether they think it is fair. Players at 29+ will decide they need to get as much money as they can before they retire, if they feel they have developed into top class and no longer necessarily need to take less money at a project club because they get more first 11 football.

I think there have been way snakier things happen in football than Toby not singing a contract with us. And these are really the kind of problems we will face as we move to big club territory. For some reason Jan has not kicked up a fuss about a new deal despite having an awesome year, but I don't think every player will be like Jan. Does that mean we should discard Toby, or whoever the next is after Toby to want a bigger deal? Once we start having more 29 year olds who can justifiably claim they could play for most teams in the world and who have one big contract left, do we discard them all once they get to that point? The realities of our club will change. Young players are happy to take the financial hit in their early to mid 20s because they get first 11 football and the opportunity to develop. 29 year olds...not so much. I don't think we can discard one for doing the quite reasonable thing to see if they can get one final big contract, particularly since they spent the last 3 years reportedly on 50k, way below what they could have earned elsewhere. Particularly if we want to win trophies - if we keep wanting to play every year with young players because they listen, are committed and we give them an opportunity to get the mistakes out of their system then we might never get beyond where we are at. I look upon the new stadium as our opportunity to retain some key experience in the squad. Not that we should go after purely 29+ players, but let's say 1 in each position (meaning defence, midfield, attack) wouldn't go a miss.

 

[Nigeyman]

Guess we’re just not in a position to spunk off 25 million big ones and all!!!...

So so frustrating that injuries and contracts have robbed us of more time watching the Toby/Jan axis....

Which is pretty darn special

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Two games in the league where imo we missed Toby's experience were City home and away, defensively, especially on the right side we were a shambles. Away from the League vs Juventus in the second game defensive errors cost us. For their second goal the Juve player walked through the right side of our midfield and defence completely unchallenged. Against Utd in the Cup, again defensive errors cost us. Imho we missed Toby's ability see danger and snuff it out before it became a problem whereas with Sanchez I had the feeling he was more reactive and could do with learning from Toby. We missed his ability to organise the defence and his calm assurance which transmits to his fellow defenders.

Offensively we also missed his threat from set pieces in the opposition half and his long progressive passes from the back.

Don't get me wrong I think Sanchez is an excellent defender but I don't think he is quite at the level of Toby yet.

Additionally the three of Toby Sanchez and Verts at the back for the big games is imo a world class combination.

Fair enough. I would like to keep him if possible but I'm not too concerned if he goes. We can point to losses where he didn't play but ultimately we are going to win and we are going to lose with and without him, I don't know that there was too much correlation. Maybe he stops the Juve defeat and maybe he stops the United defeat (if he was fit and in form) but it could just as easily be that Juve beat us because of great strategy from Allegri and Poch didn't respond quick enough, and United was more about not breaking them down.

But I do see your point - I would like his experience as an option for the right games. Not sure De Ligt takes us up a level, unless Sanchez goes up a level in Toby's place next year.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Guess we’re just not in a position to spunk off 25 million big ones and all!!!...

So so frustrating that injuries and contracts have robbed us of more time watching the Toby/Jan axis....

Which is pretty darn special

We've had 3 seasons of it. We only got 2 of Berbatov and Keane, and only 1 of Gough and Mabbutt, but they still live on in memory.