Money does in many ways equate to how much freedom you have... but money makes money... which means?
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Tito's Yugoslavia - a look back...
- Thread starter glorygloryeze
- Start date
Money does in many ways equate to how much freedom you have... but money makes money... which means?
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
The poor can never be free. Freedom only comes with agency (money), which provides individuals with real choices. It is at the heart of the right wing neo-liberal economic con.
I dont think you can say never. Because poor people do become rich and therefore more 'free' .... actually free, no need for the ' '. But i think there is little doubt that starting off with money is much more likely to enable you to make even more money.. money makes money.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Heh Scara, the poor people of Flint Michigan are free are they? Yeah, free to drink lead contaminated water, free to watch their children die and/or develop serious impairments. All because a neo-liberal Republican governor wanted to save money. I'll bet they would tell you right where you can stick your neo- liberal definition of freedom!
Free to go elsewhere. Free to vote in a government that will solve their problems, free to start a political party and fix it themsleves, etc, etc. Possibilities are endless.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
And you think I'm off with the fairies? They live in Flint because that's all they can afford. Yeah, starting a new party was going to save them from being poisoned by their own government, even voting Democrat wont bring back the dead. What are you smoking, I want some?
I'm not sure just how powerful you think wealth is, but in that sense the rich and poor are exactly the same.
Not a single penny that I earned in my life has enabled me to alter the direction of time.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
If these people had agency (money) they would have had the freedom to choose to live somewhere else. They didn't, so had to put up with the GOP governor who made them drink water straight out of the Flint River, a watercourse the Government knew to be polluted. And just to fully rub their noses in, these right wing cnuts charged them water rates.
They could have voted for another governor.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Sorry to link to this brickrag, but:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/13/saudi-arabia-treatment-foreign-workers
it was the first return on a Google search.
Tell me one thing. If having a vote is so useless, why have so many given their lives (on both sides of the rich/poor divide) simply so that others can have one?
glasgowspur
Andy Thompson
Am I reading that article right, 1.5 million foreign maids?
Wiki says Saudi has population of 31 million, so a maid for every 20 people. Surely not.
Wiki says Saudi has population of 31 million, so a maid for every 20 people. Surely not.
Thebarbarian
Nicola Berti
Sadly, that is correct. Not sure how they do it though, growing up in Hadley and then Finchley (under Maggie's reign) it was never more than 1 maid to 10. The world has become a depressing place when you see stats like this.
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
A fascinating thread. From people I've met in former Yugoslav countries and talked to - most of the younger generation were pleased to be Yugoslav and unified. But there were a number of older people who carried the previous ethnic divisions.
In response to Scara's points about dictatorships, if you ask Political Scientists what they believe is the most effective form of government, most conclude that it is a Benign Dictatorship. A dictatorship that is gentle, kind, harmless. Of course the problem is accountability. But in Titos case he was probably one of the more 'benign' dictators.
At the moment we are seeing some failings in the west's political system. Which is leading to people being drawn to any political offering that is different. To have a black and white viewpoint like 'communism is bad, liberal democracy is good', is too simplistic. Aspects of both have merits. Fundamentally democracy is more accountable, but this should not absolve it of its issues, and we can learn from other political systems and successes. Why wouldn't you?
In response to Scara's points about dictatorships, if you ask Political Scientists what they believe is the most effective form of government, most conclude that it is a Benign Dictatorship. A dictatorship that is gentle, kind, harmless. Of course the problem is accountability. But in Titos case he was probably one of the more 'benign' dictators.
At the moment we are seeing some failings in the west's political system. Which is leading to people being drawn to any political offering that is different. To have a black and white viewpoint like 'communism is bad, liberal democracy is good', is too simplistic. Aspects of both have merits. Fundamentally democracy is more accountable, but this should not absolve it of its issues, and we can learn from other political systems and successes. Why wouldn't you?
Craig_J
Mido
That part about Saddam reminds me a lot of an article I saw about ISIS which stated that in one small town ISIS got control off they got electricity up and running again for the first time in years and even had an ice cream stand to treat the kids after a day off brainwashing them with the Koran, started health and welfare programms for the people who lived there, established a foster home for orphans, set up food banks...
I also read somewhere else about a guy who lives under ISIS and he said he isn't a jihadist but wouldn't be moving his family away as he felt safer than he had done since the gulf wars. ISIS had got a firm hold onn the town and there was no more fighting or chaos. He said life under ISIS can be quite good... So long as you follow Sharia law to the letter...
I think if you live in the west where we are all relatively safe it's easy to say that without democracy quality of life doesn't exist but when you live in a war torn area where your freedom is nothing more than the freedom to suffer how you see fit a group/ individual who's able to gain enough power to bring some order to proceedings would improve quality of life considerably.
Of course that doesn't mean that the dicator who's provided these things is benevolent at all, it's all a part of them pacifying people enough to not resist.
Craig_J
Mido
You could also argue that many people on both the rich/ poor divide have given their life so others can't have one.
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
It's interesting...i think looking at most Government/Political systems worldwide, ultimately all are built with this in mind...
Not arguing against democracy, just stating that it is laughable to say it is the starting point for quality of life.
fudge your vote if you can't feed your family and keep them safe. The majority of times this is more likely under a democracy
If you are poor and a dictator allows this then you are happy
