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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
That's twofold.
Matches don't always go to plan; should ≠ will. That's why sport is exciting.
I believe Arsenal are very low on confidence. Whilst we have been dingdonged a few times this season, none of us expected any better than 4th - we've been dingdonged by teams in positions we didn't expect to get near. Arsenal fans and probably a few players thought they were going to win the league. The match against Chelsea pretty much ended their league season and there's very little to play for.
That's twofold.
Matches don't always go to plan; should ≠ will. That's why sport is exciting.
I believe Arsenal are very low on confidence. Whilst we have been dingdonged a few times this season, none of us expected any better than 4th - we've been dingdonged by teams in positions we didn't expect to get near. Arsenal fans and probably a few players thought they were going to win the league. The match against Chelsea pretty much ended their league season and there's very little to play for.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Excuse me..". Arsnl have very little to play for". What!??!
At this rate they could well be caught for fourth by Everton ( cough ) and maybe even us! Their next game is against City and I believe they have yet to go to Everton. Still plenty to play for.
Excuse me..". Arsnl have very little to play for". What!??!
At this rate they could well be caught for fourth by Everton ( cough ) and maybe even us! Their next game is against City and I believe they have yet to go to Everton. Still plenty to play for.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Behave:lol: If Spurs lost to one of the lesser sides in the league would you come out with the 'matches don't always go to plan' speech in defence of Sherwood? Of course you wouldn't. As has been proven for the past few seasons now, anyone can beat anyone in this league there are no guaranteed 3pointer games like there used to be and you saying we should be walking all these sorts of games discredits your football knowledge more than it does Sherwood if he fails to do so.....
Behave:lol: If Spurs lost to one of the lesser sides in the league would you come out with the 'matches don't always go to plan' speech in defence of Sherwood? Of course you wouldn't. As has been proven for the past few seasons now, anyone can beat anyone in this league there are no guaranteed 3pointer games like there used to be and you saying we should be walking all these sorts of games discredits your football knowledge more than it does Sherwood if he fails to do so.....
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Nope.
No, my point is that he's doing too much shouting (and not enough thinking).
To find that strange would be to underestimate my laziness and to massively overestimate the value I attribute to other people's opinions.
I don't think a team needs to start quickly to keep the ball, they need to be agile of mind and body but that's not what I'd call starting quickly.
It's always something to do with him, he's the manager - he's where the blame lands. That's the nature of the job.
Whether he failed to ask for an upgrade in Jan, failed to create an environment where thinking is valued, failed to work on keeping concentration, failed to work on the weak points of individual players, failed to ensure that tactically there was always cover for our weaker players or all of the above, it's still his fault.
Nope.
No, my point is that he's doing too much shouting (and not enough thinking).
To find that strange would be to underestimate my laziness and to massively overestimate the value I attribute to other people's opinions.
I don't think a team needs to start quickly to keep the ball, they need to be agile of mind and body but that's not what I'd call starting quickly.
It's always something to do with him, he's the manager - he's where the blame lands. That's the nature of the job.
Whether he failed to ask for an upgrade in Jan, failed to create an environment where thinking is valued, failed to work on keeping concentration, failed to work on the weak points of individual players, failed to ensure that tactically there was always cover for our weaker players or all of the above, it's still his fault.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Strange thought process.
What if I took over the team and got them playing in the "everyone stand next to the corner flag" formation. Is it still an inherited problem when they lose?
The players are still the same, right?
Strange thought process.
What if I took over the team and got them playing in the "everyone stand next to the corner flag" formation. Is it still an inherited problem when they lose?
The players are still the same, right?
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I think you're confusing should with will.
Anyone who is even moderately interested in football (barring pessimistic Spurs fans) would expect us to comfortably win those matches. Just because we should, doesn't mean we will. In fact, with Timmeh doing all he can to break everyone's confidence, tactical awareness and positioning I'd be incredibly surprised if we did win all of them.
That doesn't change the fact that before the season started almost all of us would have put wins in the BBC predictor for those matches.
I think you're confusing should with will.
Anyone who is even moderately interested in football (barring pessimistic Spurs fans) would expect us to comfortably win those matches. Just because we should, doesn't mean we will. In fact, with Timmeh doing all he can to break everyone's confidence, tactical awareness and positioning I'd be incredibly surprised if we did win all of them.
That doesn't change the fact that before the season started almost all of us would have put wins in the BBC predictor for those matches.
SUIYHA
Scott Parker
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Er....how about:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (H) - Paulinho gives the ball away carelessly, Saudi Sportswashing Machine play Remy through on goal who scores
Emirates Marketing Project (A) - At least three goals down to poor individual mistakes
Man Utd (H) - Walker sets the ball up nicely for Rooney for the first, then Lloris gave away a penalty for the second
That's 6 goals in 3 games conceded to very poor individual errors, but that was ages ago right? Oh no wait it was earlier this season in the "good old days" when we had a proper manager who could coach all this stuff out of this wonderful group of players.
Tactically, Sherwood has had his good and bad moments. I've seen enough to be convinced that he's no-where near as bad tactically as AVB was though, which is an improvement. Where I think Sherwood struggles is in the way he communicates things. Sometimes, his messages don't seem to be "sticking" with the players. His response to that seemed to be to shout and scream at them, which can work well every once in a while (Ferguson hairdryer etc), but if it happens too often it loses its effect and either just ****es people off or makes them scared to make mistakes. There was a point a couple of weeks ago where it looked as though nobody was enjoying their football at the club - nobody was trying any fancy tricks or flicks, audacious attempts on goal, quick one-touch passes etc, but the performances are getting better and the players look as though their confidence is coming back. If Sherwood can keep morale high now that it's coming back up, we can finish the season strongly and I hope he can win over some of the doubters.
I'm yet to be convinced that we should keep him next season. I've seen potential in Sherwood, but I think this job may have come a little early for him as he needs some more media and man management experience for sure. He's certainly done a lot better than I ever thought he would when I put my head in my hands on hearing he'd been appointed full time. A lot of football fans seem to promote stats when they prove their point and try to discredit them when they don't, but here are a few facts that I think are worth bringing up:
1. Sherwood has the best points per game record in the league of ANY MANAGER WE HAVE EVER HAD. That's from I think a reasonable, reflective sample of 15 games that have included trips to Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford, St Marys and St James Park, as well as having Arsenal and Emirates Marketing Project come to White Hart Lane.
2. Sherwood has the best goals scored per game record in the league of any manager we have had since Peter Shreeves left in 1986.
3. Only in one league game have we taken the lead but failed to win the game (West Brom at home, his second game), that shows a good ability to close games out. Whereas we've gained seven points from losing positions which shows a never say die attitude and a determination to get back into games when we fall behind. I know there was the West Ham cup game too. But there was also the Dnipro fightback and the Benfica fightback, in which we were a poor refereeing decision away from being the first team since Barcelona a year and a half ago to beat them on their own turf.
4. Mauricio Pochettino has gained lots of praise for his tactical innovation and the good football he plays with a talented Southampton side. There are only two managers who have been able to do the "double" over him in his time in English football - Jose Mourinho and Tim Sherwood. It should be noted that in both of Sherwood's victories, we not only deserved the win, but Sherwood used very different tactical approaches to get the results.
5. All of this with a horrific injury list to deal with, other managers coming out declaring that they want his job, the media constantly talking about how unstable his position is and unsettling the squad, several insultingly bad refereeing decisions going against us, having to work with a squad containing plenty of players he's had to use that he clearly doesn't rate, our rivals for a top 4 spot hitting ridiculous form, and of course, huge segments of the fan base being completely against him from the very start, no matter how well he does, undermining his every move, discrediting what he does well, not turning up to games, fuelling further speculation that his job is untenable and he'll be gone by the end of the season.
Remember how bad Chelsea were when Benitez took over last season? Their fans all screaming about how they didn't want him there etc? It was only when he said he was going to leave at the end of the season that the fans accepted he was only there for the short term, got behind him (or at least got off his back) and the team put a run of form together to finish 3rd and win the Europa League. I wonder what would happen if, even if you don't think he's the long term solution or he'll be here next season, our fan base actually got behind Sherwood for the rest of the season.
Er....how about:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (H) - Paulinho gives the ball away carelessly, Saudi Sportswashing Machine play Remy through on goal who scores
Emirates Marketing Project (A) - At least three goals down to poor individual mistakes
Man Utd (H) - Walker sets the ball up nicely for Rooney for the first, then Lloris gave away a penalty for the second
That's 6 goals in 3 games conceded to very poor individual errors, but that was ages ago right? Oh no wait it was earlier this season in the "good old days" when we had a proper manager who could coach all this stuff out of this wonderful group of players.
Tactically, Sherwood has had his good and bad moments. I've seen enough to be convinced that he's no-where near as bad tactically as AVB was though, which is an improvement. Where I think Sherwood struggles is in the way he communicates things. Sometimes, his messages don't seem to be "sticking" with the players. His response to that seemed to be to shout and scream at them, which can work well every once in a while (Ferguson hairdryer etc), but if it happens too often it loses its effect and either just ****es people off or makes them scared to make mistakes. There was a point a couple of weeks ago where it looked as though nobody was enjoying their football at the club - nobody was trying any fancy tricks or flicks, audacious attempts on goal, quick one-touch passes etc, but the performances are getting better and the players look as though their confidence is coming back. If Sherwood can keep morale high now that it's coming back up, we can finish the season strongly and I hope he can win over some of the doubters.
I'm yet to be convinced that we should keep him next season. I've seen potential in Sherwood, but I think this job may have come a little early for him as he needs some more media and man management experience for sure. He's certainly done a lot better than I ever thought he would when I put my head in my hands on hearing he'd been appointed full time. A lot of football fans seem to promote stats when they prove their point and try to discredit them when they don't, but here are a few facts that I think are worth bringing up:
1. Sherwood has the best points per game record in the league of ANY MANAGER WE HAVE EVER HAD. That's from I think a reasonable, reflective sample of 15 games that have included trips to Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford, St Marys and St James Park, as well as having Arsenal and Emirates Marketing Project come to White Hart Lane.
2. Sherwood has the best goals scored per game record in the league of any manager we have had since Peter Shreeves left in 1986.
3. Only in one league game have we taken the lead but failed to win the game (West Brom at home, his second game), that shows a good ability to close games out. Whereas we've gained seven points from losing positions which shows a never say die attitude and a determination to get back into games when we fall behind. I know there was the West Ham cup game too. But there was also the Dnipro fightback and the Benfica fightback, in which we were a poor refereeing decision away from being the first team since Barcelona a year and a half ago to beat them on their own turf.
4. Mauricio Pochettino has gained lots of praise for his tactical innovation and the good football he plays with a talented Southampton side. There are only two managers who have been able to do the "double" over him in his time in English football - Jose Mourinho and Tim Sherwood. It should be noted that in both of Sherwood's victories, we not only deserved the win, but Sherwood used very different tactical approaches to get the results.
5. All of this with a horrific injury list to deal with, other managers coming out declaring that they want his job, the media constantly talking about how unstable his position is and unsettling the squad, several insultingly bad refereeing decisions going against us, having to work with a squad containing plenty of players he's had to use that he clearly doesn't rate, our rivals for a top 4 spot hitting ridiculous form, and of course, huge segments of the fan base being completely against him from the very start, no matter how well he does, undermining his every move, discrediting what he does well, not turning up to games, fuelling further speculation that his job is untenable and he'll be gone by the end of the season.
Remember how bad Chelsea were when Benitez took over last season? Their fans all screaming about how they didn't want him there etc? It was only when he said he was going to leave at the end of the season that the fans accepted he was only there for the short term, got behind him (or at least got off his back) and the team put a run of form together to finish 3rd and win the Europa League. I wonder what would happen if, even if you don't think he's the long term solution or he'll be here next season, our fan base actually got behind Sherwood for the rest of the season.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
So because arsenal draw with swansea its ok for spurs to do the same? Because arsenal are better?
I don't understand this! Are you surrending to the notion that arsenal are still better than Spurs? Why shouldn't we be the better of the two?
So because arsenal draw with swansea its ok for spurs to do the same? Because arsenal are better?
I don't understand this! Are you surrending to the notion that arsenal are still better than Spurs? Why shouldn't we be the better of the two?
Craig_J
Mido
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I don't think he's saying that at all, just that it goes to show that no manager is ever going to win all the games that he should win. Just as how Fergie would always have a few slip ups during a season. So saying we should win all these games, even with a brain dead chimp in charge is an unrealistic statement.
I don't think he's saying that at all, just that it goes to show that no manager is ever going to win all the games that he should win. Just as how Fergie would always have a few slip ups during a season. So saying we should win all these games, even with a brain dead chimp in charge is an unrealistic statement.
Mulletperm
Mauricio Taricco
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Well I have to conclude from that there was no evidence that it was a weakness in Naughton's game previous to the Southampton match therefore it is unreasonable to have expected TS to have coached it out of him.
Your original question was 'concentration vs 1990s Dave Basset motivational shoutiness. Do you think that can have an effect on individual errors?' to which I responded TS must have an incredibly loud voice as he was in the stands when KN made the error. You then corrected me with;
'I'm talking about how they were sent out, not what's happening during the match. I think the advice being given by Ramsey during the match is probably quite good based on what I've heard about him.'
So your point was that Tim Sherwood's pre-match team talk caused KN's error. Not that he' doing too much shouting and not enough thinking. You're shifting the goalposts again.
Lazyness is a fairly good excuse when you know that if you look into the data you will be proven wrong. It really wouldn't take that much effort. I'll tell you what, pick any five games from the ones I've listed and we'll look at the goals conceded.
I think you are mis-understanding what I mean by 'starting quickly'. I don't mean we go out, run about and look busy and try and pepper the oppositions goal with as many shots as possible. I mean you go out sharp, ready to take on what comes at you and make the best of early opportunities, in order to do so, you need to be of agile body and mind and in order to do that you need to start quickly.
1. 'Something to do with him' is not equal to 'that is where the blame lands'. Yes of course it's always something to do with him, he's the manager. I can accept that, but I can't accept that you can put full blame on TS because a professional footballer makes a one off mistake that would not happen once if the same situation was presented 100 times.
2. You've defended AVB's record because he had an un-settled team. By your logic, that's his fault.
Well I have to conclude from that there was no evidence that it was a weakness in Naughton's game previous to the Southampton match therefore it is unreasonable to have expected TS to have coached it out of him.
Your original question was 'concentration vs 1990s Dave Basset motivational shoutiness. Do you think that can have an effect on individual errors?' to which I responded TS must have an incredibly loud voice as he was in the stands when KN made the error. You then corrected me with;
'I'm talking about how they were sent out, not what's happening during the match. I think the advice being given by Ramsey during the match is probably quite good based on what I've heard about him.'
So your point was that Tim Sherwood's pre-match team talk caused KN's error. Not that he' doing too much shouting and not enough thinking. You're shifting the goalposts again.
Lazyness is a fairly good excuse when you know that if you look into the data you will be proven wrong. It really wouldn't take that much effort. I'll tell you what, pick any five games from the ones I've listed and we'll look at the goals conceded.
I think you are mis-understanding what I mean by 'starting quickly'. I don't mean we go out, run about and look busy and try and pepper the oppositions goal with as many shots as possible. I mean you go out sharp, ready to take on what comes at you and make the best of early opportunities, in order to do so, you need to be of agile body and mind and in order to do that you need to start quickly.
1. 'Something to do with him' is not equal to 'that is where the blame lands'. Yes of course it's always something to do with him, he's the manager. I can accept that, but I can't accept that you can put full blame on TS because a professional footballer makes a one off mistake that would not happen once if the same situation was presented 100 times.
2. You've defended AVB's record because he had an un-settled team. By your logic, that's his fault.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Hashegotthesackyet?
Gudni Bergsson
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
63% for Tim by Sunday 6 pm ):
63% for Tim by Sunday 6 pm ):
THFC6061
Paul Robinson
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Christ, it's BS hour again ..
How about somebody take those stats and remove the drop off that got each manager fired (since we are measuring TS's prime period with everyone else's prime +drop off)
The other thing you should notice is each manager got a better win % than the last, does it mean AVB was a better manager for us than Harry? absolutely not, what it means is as our revival/improvement has continued, we have had more money and hence better squads, while TS may not have the WC players (Modric/Bale), he has a larger and more capable squad in general (may not be balanced, but all those managers had squad balance issues).
And TS's issue is, like AVB and unlike Harry and BMJ, he might be getting results but we look and play like ****.
Christ, it's BS hour again ..
How about somebody take those stats and remove the drop off that got each manager fired (since we are measuring TS's prime period with everyone else's prime +drop off)
The other thing you should notice is each manager got a better win % than the last, does it mean AVB was a better manager for us than Harry? absolutely not, what it means is as our revival/improvement has continued, we have had more money and hence better squads, while TS may not have the WC players (Modric/Bale), he has a larger and more capable squad in general (may not be balanced, but all those managers had squad balance issues).
And TS's issue is, like AVB and unlike Harry and BMJ, he might be getting results but we look and play like ****.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
We've lost 3 of our last 5 and could well lose again at the weekend I think we may have hit our dropoff point.
As for the squad being more capable I'd disagree, IMHO when we had Bale and Modric we were better than we are now.
As for it being BS hour, just because the stats don't backup your hatred of TS that doesn't make them invalid.
We've lost 3 of our last 5 and could well lose again at the weekend I think we may have hit our dropoff point.
As for the squad being more capable I'd disagree, IMHO when we had Bale and Modric we were better than we are now.
As for it being BS hour, just because the stats don't backup your hatred of TS that doesn't make them invalid.