Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Apt username there Chancer

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The answer to that you won't like, but I'll give a reason

- To me, his chance is up, he needed to make a good run in one of the cups and/or seriously challenge for 4th, that obviously would have been his mandate taking the job.

TS's problem is he always was a gamble, an established manager can ask for a full season or more to be judged, because he has credentials that state he's done it before, therefore is worth the risk (think of the idea of if you had to pick one striker between Soldado/Kane to play every game for rest of season, which one and why? answer = Soldado, because his record says he can do it again)

Tottenham is a 120M+ pound business a year that cannot risk the results of another season on a "maybe" with no history/credentials/indicator that it's worth the risk, hope is not a strategy.

I completely disagree with the parameters you are judging him by. Who gives a fig how well he did or didn't do in the cups see Ramos and Dagliesh guys who won cups and yet ****ed up in the league. How would you have rated Rodgers last season? Crap in the cups and did not mount a serious top 4 challenge. Funny because loads of posters on here were laughing at him last season, bet they are not now. You dismiss our fifth place but IMO it shows that there must be a plan and it is working to a degree. I can understand if we were hovering above the drop zone or even ensconced in mid table having been left a reasonable points total by his predecessor. But we are not. We have tried managers with credentials and it has failed I would say we should see how we finish this season and try and build some momentum for next but like I said before Sherwood cannot really win with many fans.

Bottom line is you and many other fans on here are viewing him through a lens of personal dislike which will mean you will never accept him.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

TS is in charge of the defenders. If they're not performing it's his fault - that's what being the manager is about.

He has to create the environment and mindset where they don't make mistakes - most other managers do that, there's no reason (except for lack of ability/intelligence) why he can't.

But when they are performing it's nothing to do with him. That's how it works right?

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But when they are performing it's nothing to do with him. That's how it works right?

Mate I actually do agree, amazingly, with scara's point about responsibility. Sherwood needs to sort this out.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Mate I actually do agree, amazingly, with scara's point about responsibility. Sherwood needs to sort this out.

Sherwood trains the players, sends them out on the pitch, once they're out there he can't MAKE Naughton header the ball instead of letting it bounce over his head or MAKE the CBs mark someone in the penalty box. Those are individual decisions he has no control over and nothing to do with training or tactics.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Mate I actually do agree, amazingly, with scara's point about responsibility. Sherwood needs to sort this out.

So do I, Sherwood, at very least needs to look into why it keeps happening. But that doesn't mean that he should be given no credit for players who perform well under him.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But when they are performing it's nothing to do with him. That's how it works right?

If they perform above their ability then it's to his credit. I've yet to see any of our players do that (although I'll admit it rarely shows in the short term)

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sherwood trains the players, sends them out on the pitch, once they're out there he can't MAKE Naughton header the ball instead of letting it bounce over his head or MAKE the CBs mark someone in the penalty box. Those are individual decisions he has no control over and nothing to do with training or tactics.

I agree to certain extent but it is worrying how many mistakes everyone in our back line are making which makes me wonder if it is a systemic problem, a mental one or a combination of both.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So do I, Sherwood, at very least needs to look into why it keeps happening. But that doesn't mean that he should be given no credit for players who perform well under him.

I agree.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sherwood trains the players, sends them out on the pitch, once they're out there he can't MAKE Naughton header the ball instead of letting it bounce over his head or MAKE the CBs mark someone in the penalty box. Those are individual decisions he has no control over and nothing to do with training or tactics.

You're right he can't make Naughton do anything, but he now needs to pull him aside in training and try to get to the root cause of why the errors happened. If it's a 'boss, I just misjudged the flight of the ball because to be honest, I'm a bit **** (which I suspect is the case)' he has to establish the best way for preventing it from happening again.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Ferguson and Wenger also left/leave most of the coaching to their assistants.

Indeed, and this is a point I made with regards to Sherwood's managerial potential i.e. if he is prepared to work with great coaches alongside him then he has a pretty bright future I'd imagine...

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree to certain extent but it is worrying how many mistakes everyone in our back line are making which makes me wonder if it is a systemic problem, a mental one or a combination of both.

Probably a combination of both.

I'm not sure when we played the same back four for more than two games in a row. Injuries and suspensions have made playing a settled back four impossible.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If they perform above their ability then it's to his credit. I've yet to see any of our players do that (although I'll admit it rarely shows in the short term)

That doesn't make sense. No player on the planet consistently performs above their ability because their ability is determined by what they can and can't do. If a player consistently performs 'above' their ability level it means they have improved as a player, their improvement as a player comes down to many things.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That doesn't make sense. No player on the planet consistently performs above their ability because their ability is determined by what they can and can't do. If a player consistently performs 'above' their ability level it means they have improved as a player, their improvement as a player comes down to many things.

Try reversing that and see if it makes sense.

If a player (let's say Naughton) is consistently playing below their level, does that mean he's permanently now a worse player or that he's going through a bad patch of form?

Good managers get more out of their players/team than bad managers - so far, Timmeh is not even getting a par performance out of our defence.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yet, according to those figures, we are conceding less goals under TS and scoring more. So by that reckoning I don't give a **** where people are shooting from if we are conceding less and I really don't see the point of your argument. 1.3 shots per game more inside the 6 yard box, big deal, could that be down to where the ball just happens to be passed to by the opposition or has TS got some kind of ball magnet in the back of our goal that forces it into the six yard box. I'm not 100% at this whole managerial stuff but i'm sure he has no control over where the OPPOSITION put the ball.

Exactly. The salient stats are:

AVB PL 16 gls 15 gls (0.95 per game) goals against 21 (1.31 per game)

TS PL 15 gls 25 (1.66 per game) goals against 19 (1.26 per game)

Whichever way you look at those figures, under TS we are scoring more AND conceding less.

Also, may I remind you that 7 of the goals against Sherwood came after penalties were awarded and men wrongly sent off against Chelsea and City. Add in , the individual aberrations ala Verts and Walker v Chelsea and Naughton's two yesterday and you get a very different picture indeed.

Finally, I really didn't want to continue to watch a team scoring less than a goal a game. Thankfully we are now up to 1.66 per game.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I completely disagree with the parameters you are judging him by. Who gives a fig how well he did or didn't do in the cups see Ramos and Dagliesh guys who won cups and yet ****ed up in the league. How would you have rated Rodgers last season? Crap in the cups and did not mount a serious top 4 challenge. Funny because loads of posters on here were laughing at him last season, bet they are not now. You dismiss our fifth place but IMO it shows that there must be a plan and it is working to a degree. I can understand if we were hovering above the drop zone or even ensconced in mid table having been left a reasonable points total by his predecessor. But we are not. We have tried managers with credentials and it has failed I would say we should see how we finish this season and try and build some momentum for next but like I said before Sherwood cannot really win with many fans.

Bottom line is you and many other fans on here are viewing him through a lens of personal dislike which will mean you will never accept him.

Spot on.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Indeed, and this is a point I made with regards to Sherwood's managerial potential i.e. if he is prepared to work with great coaches alongside him then he has a pretty bright future I'd imagine...

I made exactly the same point earlier.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Try reversing that and see if it makes sense.

If a player (let's say Naughton) is consistently playing below their level, does that mean he's permanently now a worse player or that he's going through a bad patch of form?

Good managers get more out of their players/team than bad managers - so far, Timmeh is not even getting a par performance out of our defence.

It means that either their ability level is not very high to begin with or that they're not playing to the best of their ability. My guess is that in his case it's a bit of both.

They do, but they do not consistently have players perform 'above' their ability level which is the criteria you are trying to judge him on.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But when they are performing it's nothing to do with him. That's how it works right?

:ross: =D>

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It means that either their ability level is not very high to begin with or that they're not playing to the best of their ability. My guess is that in his case it's a bit of both.

They do, but they do not consistently have players perform 'above' their ability level which is the criteria you are trying to judge him on.

Just any above par performances would show that he is having some effect. I'm not seeing that - I'm seeing a team that (if we're being really generous) is playing at par and winning points because we have better players. In which case the best we can say about YTS is that he hasn't turned the team entirely to **** yet.