Thomas Frank - Former Head Coach

[Raziel]

By the way, what a mockery this current situation makes of our loan system. Right now, we have two players in Devine and Donley who have had regular match experience and carry with them some talent, fight and hunger, not to mention versatility. Lankshear has managed to gain some valuable time. Moore is doing really well. I’d even argue that Abbott (not sure if he is injured right now?) would’ve made a good addition?
ALL players who are ready to drop in for emergencies, all players who would help. A player like Donley yesterday off the bench at least gives you energy, engine and some vision.
Yet between the manager and our brilliant sporting director, we decided we needed none of them (Moore is the only one I understand as his tactics would’ve killed the kid).
Pathetic all round.

Disagree mate, we killed two generations of academy players by having them hang around the squad and never get game time. Let me make you think for a second, Winks took till moving to Leicester to have a season with as much game time as Skipp had on his loan with Norwich, getting 45+ games in a season at 19 vs. 27 is a major factor in your development (regardless of individual ceilings).

I'd actually argue the next manager needs to have a plan for Gray/Bergvall/Odobert development/play time or I would loan some of them out too (no Europe next season). I'd leave Vuskovic out on another year loan (new contract, raise and extension required), I'd give Moore another season out as well. And LWB needs to play, his loan next season better be right.

The reason we were so light on the week-end is because we failed to act in January appropriately, not because we should have had a few more kids on the bench.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Disagree mate, we killed two generations of academy players by having them hang around the squad and never get game time. Let me make you think for a second, Winks took till moving to Leicester to have a season with as much game time as Skipp had on his loan with Norwich, getting 45+ games in a season at 19 vs. 27 is a major factor in your development (regardless of individual ceilings).

I'd actually argue the next manager needs to have a plan for Gray/Bergvall/Odobert development/play time or I would loan some of them out too (no Europe next season). I'd leave Vuskovic out on another year loan (new contract, raise and extension required), I'd give Moore another season out as well. And LWB needs to play, his loan next season better be right.

The reason we were so light on the week-end is because we failed to act in January appropriately, not because we should have had a few more kids on the bench.

It’s not kids on the bench that’s the issue
It’s kids with minutes as you say earlier in your post
Having kids because we’re done to bare bones can’t be the answer
But no manager seems to trust the home grown kids to give them even 10 minutes here and there and the what other managers do imo

 

[Ace Face]

Having players who have come through the academy provides an extra level of pride in playing for the shirt though. I’ll wager a training session with a few Academy graduates pushing for a first XI place will be more intense than one without.

 

[thfcsteff]

Disagree mate, we killed two generations of academy players by having them hang around the squad and never get game time. Let me make you think for a second, Winks took till moving to Leicester to have a season with as much game time as Skipp had on his loan with Norwich, getting 45+ games in a season at 19 vs. 27 is a major factor in your development (regardless of individual ceilings).

I'd actually argue the next manager needs to have a plan for Gray/Bergvall/Odobert development/play time or I would loan some of them out too (no Europe next season). I'd leave Vuskovic out on another year loan (new contract, raise and extension required), I'd give Moore another season out as well. And LWB needs to play, his loan next season better be right.

The reason we were so light on the week-end is because we failed to act in January appropriately, not because we should have had a few more kids on the bench.

I have either been unclear or you have taken the wrong interpretation.

No need to make me think mate, I am all for us developing youth.

I was speaking short-term.
And in the short-term, knowing how we were going to fudge two managers in one bricky window and with a treatement table overburdened, I stand by my assertion that in the SHORT-TERM, two or three of those players recalled for the immediate rest of the season was the call to make.
I am ALL for loan development (in fact, I would not have included Mikey Moore in this scenario precisely for that reason) however in this short-term moment we are simply not making the best use of our assets.
The alternative appears to be maybe throwing a Luca Williams Barnett into a fray which could really do him damage and which I am firmly against.

BTW, have you seen my numerous posts criticizing our leadership for fudging two managers in one window? And before frankly? They're there. My point remains that when Capt Vanilla comes out and ChatGPTs a whole bunch of 'what wasn't possible' stuff, recalling talented youths with plenty of game time for short-term coverage in an injury crisis is well worth it and was possible.

P.S. take a look at how comprehensively we seem unable to get the right loans for players such as Donley, Devine and even Dorrington. Lankshear's has turned out OK, but the only true success recently has been Moore. Tell me short-term that Donley and/or Devine wouldn't have fared any worse off being back with us for the rest of the season?

As for Winks? In 2018/19 he made 41 appearances in all competitions including a CL Final. I don't think he's an example you want to use unless to point out how in injury pinches, academy players can be great options if no-one is signing anyone...

 

[Raziel]

I have either been unclear or you have taken the wrong interpretation.

No need to make me think mate, I am all for us developing youth.

I was speaking short-term.
And in the short-term, knowing how we were going to fudge two managers in one bricky window and with a treatement table overburdened, I stand by my assertion that in the SHORT-TERM, two or three of those players recalled for the immediate rest of the season was the call to make.
I am ALL for loan development (in fact, I would not have included Mikey Moore in this scenario precisely for that reason) however in this short-term moment we are simply not making the best use of our assets.
The alternative appears to be maybe throwing a Luca Williams Barnett into a fray which could really do him damage and which I am firmly against.

BTW, have you seen my numerous posts criticizing our leadership for fudging two managers in one window? And before frankly? They're there. My point remains that when Capt Vanilla comes out and ChatGPTs a whole bunch of 'what wasn't possible' stuff, recalling talented youths with plenty of game time for short-term coverage in an injury crisis is well worth it and was possible.

P.S. take a look at how comprehensively we seem unable to get the right loans for players such as Donley, Devine and even Dorrington. Lankshear's has turned out OK, but the only true success recently has been Moore. Tell me short-term that Donley and/or Devine wouldn't have fared any worse off being back with us for the rest of the season?

As for Winks? In 2018/19 he made 41 appearances in all competitions including a CL Final. I don't think he's an example you want to use unless to point out how in injury pinches, academy players can be great options if no-one is signing anyone...

Think we are arguing across each other here

For me the player development comes over immediate squad needs (I'm sure Vuskovic would be helpful now but I would ask anyone who did it be fired), the trick becomes a genuine plan for player development that allows 2-3 to be around to be used. I'd argue if we aren't willing to put LWB on the pitch he should not be consistently in the matchday squad.

The point about Winks stands, over a period of 5 years he got way less games that he would have got on loans and perhaps (none of us know), like Mason, Bentaleb, Scarlett and a host of others that didn't make it to the level expected, playing full seasons earlier would have allowed them to step up (KDB, Salah, Saliba all players that had to go away and come back to improve, in our own squad, look at Danso).

Bad loans are an execution problem and we should fix the execution problem vs. not loaning the player. Squad mismanagement is just another symptom of how the club is an utter mess at all levels at the moment

 

[mudshark]

Think we are arguing across each other here

For me the player development comes over immediate squad needs (I'm sure Vuskovic would be helpful now but I would ask anyone who did it be fired), the trick becomes a genuine plan for player development that allows 2-3 to be around to be used. I'd argue if we aren't willing to put LWB on the pitch he should not be consistently in the matchday squad.

The point about Winks stands, over a period of 5 years he got way less games that he would have got on loans and perhaps (none of us know), like Mason, Bentaleb, Scarlett and a host of others that didn't make it to the level expected, playing full seasons earlier would have allowed them to step up (KDB, Salah, Saliba all players that had to go away and come back to improve, in our own squad, look at Danso).

Bad loans are an execution problem and we should fix the execution problem vs. not loaning the player. Squad mismanagement is just another symptom of how the club is an utter mess at all levels at the moment

That's all fine as far as it goes and I agree in principle, but I also agree with Steff that given current circumstances, we ought to have recalled some, and not to have done so looks like negligence. There's no point worrying about Vušković's development if that effort benefits only Chelsea or City or whoever else swoops in and picks him up in our relegation fire-sale.

 

[Raziel]

That's all fine as far as it goes and I agree in principle, but I also agree with Steff that given current circumstances, we ought to have recalled some, and not to have done so looks like negligence. There's no point worrying about Vušković's development if that effort benefits only Chelsea or City or whoever else swoops in and picks him up. in our relegation fire-sale.

Fair, but I think if had bought 2 more mid-level journeyman players (say 25M each from continent), nobody would have been talking about youth players. And this is broader mismanagement, the risk of losing 50M on 2 players we need to dump in 12-18 months was far less than the risk we are currently taking on.

Where I am annoyed on the academy front is the constant lack of usage, under the last 2-3 managers we have given a few academy players small run outs, but we clearly don't trust any to use legitimately, which is why I think my recall point being a waste stands

 

[mudshark]

Fair, but I think if had bought 2 more mid-level journeyman players (say 25M each from continent), nobody would have been talking about youth players. And this is broader mismanagement, the risk of losing 50M on 2 players we need to dump in 12-18 months was far less than the risk we are currently taking on.

Where I am annoyed on the academy front is the constant lack of usage, under the last 2-3 managers we have given a few academy players small run outs, but we clearly don't trust any to use legitimately, which is why I think my recall point being a waste stands

Also fair, but I think this discussion was predicated on the idea we weren't going to buy anyone else, and that in that circumstance, recalls ought to have been considered.

 

[metalgear]

the failure to get mgw and eze over the line was no fault of TF

and whoever was it who didn't do it with proper due diligence, and early enough for a plan B - I hope it was levy because i dread the idea that he is still around.

also, arsenal did their signings early and completed their transfer mission - how were they able to raise enough cash for eze in a hurry? just goes to demonstrate again how levy failed to build on the football side of things.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Fair, but I think if had bought 2 more mid-level journeyman players (say 25M each from continent), nobody would have been talking about youth players. And this is broader mismanagement, the risk of losing 50M on 2 players we need to dump in 12-18 months was far less than the risk we are currently taking on.

Where I am annoyed on the academy front is the constant lack of usage, under the last 2-3 managers we have given a few academy players small run outs, but we clearly don't trust any to use legitimately, which is why I think my recall point being a waste stands

Recalls of players like Steff suggests and hunting for 6 months loans was the route to take....no need to dump £50m on two journeymen.

 

[parklane1]

I’d generally agree with you but The Athletic are a pretty good source. Was listening to one of their writers in the week and he was saying that they’ll have at least two sources if not three before they put something like this out there.

Fair enough, as they say its all ab out opinions.