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The Society of Black Lawyers...

glorygloryeze said:
Statement from the Black Solicitors Network website:

"The Black Solicitors Network is the primary voice of black solicitors in England and Wales; committed to achieving equality of access, retention and promotion of black solicitors."

It is essentially a support network for Black Solicitors, to make sure that there is equality in terms of access, promotion etc. I think the word to stress is EQUALITY.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with clients.

I agree that this kind of network should hopefully not be needed, but let's not be niave and assume that discrimination doesn't exist anymore. Things are better for sure; hopefully in 20-30 years time such groups dissolve by proxy as the mainstream is fully reprsentative. We can only hope
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Oh right, they are only concerned with equality in the legal profession..... and football it seems.
 
milo said:
What percentage of judges and QCs are from ethnic minorities?
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What difference does it make?

If one meets the requirements - he'll most likely be considered for the position.

Why should it based on anything other than ability, qualifications and experience?

Isn't preferrential treatment towards people of certain ethnicities a form of racism?
 
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ArcspacE said:
What difference does it make?

If one meets the requirements - he'll most likely be considered for the position.

Why should it based on anything other than ability, qualifications and experience?

Isn't preferrential treatment towards people of certain ethnicities a form of racism?
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Your post makes the assumption that there is already a meritocracy in the English legal system which is sadly not true.

Glorygloryeze posted an excellent post on the previous page which explained some of the ways in which the old boys network can hold back female lawyers and lawyers from ethnic minorities reaching the top of their profession in England.

No one is suggesting preferential treatment for ethnic minorities, positive discrimination is illegal in England and it would not be within the SBL to give it. Support, advice and mentorship should be more than enough which is exactly what white, male lawyers from certain backgrounds get from the old boys network.
 
glorygloryeze said:
You still don't get it do you?
I'll ask again, in the UK or other country where the vast majority of the population is white, why would you start a Society for White Lawyers? Again, what would be the point?
I see Hootnow has asked this as well
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If they felt that white people were being discriminated against because of an unreasonable level of positive discrimination. If there is positive discrimination, then some people must be losing out. There could be a valid case, at least in principle.

I’ll note here I believe in positive discrimination and many of the points made by Hootnow and will address that in the next post.

glorygloryeze said:
I have no direct experience in the legal world, but I have some in the technical world. The technical world works a lot more closely to a full meritocracy as it's new and basically it's all about the hard-nosed description of the end-product: if it's good, you are in no matter what race sex etc.

However from what a schoolfriend who has recently changed career to get into this profession, the legal world seems a much 'older' established perhaps even stuffy world where the difference most of the times between where and how far you get is much more 'subtley defined' and oftenb its to do with 'who you drink with', ;who you studies with', 'who you parents are' and 'who you know'.

In a country like our where Freemasons are still present - especially in the legal world - you can see that those not of the 'old orders' may not get the right ball to bat; hence perhaps at some point there may have been seen a need for an SBL. Sorry just realised i'm bringingmany issues and topis in here, but my pointb is tat unlike the IT/programming world it is not such a straightforward meritocracy and the IT/programming world could not afford to create 'cliques', whether black or white.
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You are making the point that difficulties of progressing in the legal profession are not due to race, but due to inherent institutional biases, freemasons, school and university networks, etc. So should the campaign be to help all people from under underprivileged or non-privileged backgrounds or just those of some races?

In the case of the Society of Black Lawyers/Solicitors, if their goal is to campaign against racism, why not call it the Society of Lawyers against Racism? Why use a racially polarized name?
 
However, there are good reasons for the existence of positive discrimination. Discrimination was a major problem in the past and although we have come a long way, there is still some discrimination - overt, subconscious or institutional – and many people are in an under privileged position because of past discrimination.

Braineclipse and Hootnow made this point well earlier …

braineclipse said:
Choosing to help a group of people because you feel they deserve that help is hardly that bad is it?

Premises:

1. In the past minorities were discriminated against and so ended up in the lower social classes a lot of the time.

2. Their children and grandchildren are overrepresented in those lower social classes today, at least partly because of the racism in the past.

Based on this I would say that.

1. This isn't a fair situation.

2. To work towards evening out the differences in social class between minorities and the majority in a country seems like a solid idea. Organizations doing this would probably have to focus their attention on some of the minorities or on minorities over the majority.
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Hootnow said:
And they have done studies on [preferential employment] before. White man/woman, male and female with clearly ethnic names send in the same cv to the same jobs. Take a wild swing at who gets the most call-backs.

We're also not all equal. Youth unemployment is high amongst London's youth but significantly higher as a % amongst black and Asian youth. I see neither steps to help address this socio-economic gap in terms of education and opportunities by any government and no positive discrimination for them in terms of jobs. And you want to take away a group that is perhaps one of their only ways into a job?
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Hootnow said:
…

I'm only a supporter of positive discrimination up to a point. That has to come alongside real change at the base level so that everyone gets the same opportunities. And pos discrimination should still ensure that those getting picked are good at their job, rather than a random person from that minority.

How will they improve when, without intervention, the cycle continues? Black kid grows up in a council estate with appalling schools, leave school at 16, struggle to get a job, have kids in the same area and the cycle continues over and over. There are some areas of London today where the kids are coming out of school barely literate. Until you can show real progress in those kinds of areas, I see no reason why such groups should stop functioning.
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Hootnow said:
As I said, some kids are coming out of schools effectively illiterate. And that isn't always because they're lazy or stupid, sometimes the teaching is simply that poor.

I want to reform the system so that these kids can fulfil their full potential, rather than having to slog their whole lives in something worse than they perhaps deserve based on natural ability.
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Hootnow said:
…. an example. KCL run a scheme that allows students from some of the most deprived areas of London to get into medicine there with lower grades than normal. Black students are hugely over-represented in this group. They of course have to do an extra year to get them up to scratch with normal required levels. But KCL has a higher % of blacks than most medical schools in this country do and this case of 'positive discrimination' has allowed some people that usually wouldn't be anywhere near a course like medicine a great chance.

I don't see much societal movement to improve the circumstances and schools for these kids, just judgement and punishment when some of them inevitably end up causing trouble.
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The last post makes it clear how positive discrimination can work at the education level.

Schools in poor areas tend to be less effective than those in richer areas and private schools even better at getting students good grades. So if a university picks only on grades, will they get the students who have the best chance of becoming the best in their field? The answer is an emphatic no. At university many of those from private schools with good grades only do OK while those with moderate grades from poorer backgrounds blossom.

The University of California (Berkeley, UCLA, etc) has a scheme where they guarantee a place to people who finish in the top 10% (it might be a different percentage) of their High School class, rather than relying purely on absolute grades. This effectively means that black and latino kids get in to university with lower grades. I think this is an excellent example of positive discrimination, a means to pick on potential performance rather than the past.

Its not unreasonable to ask companies recruiting from school or university to take a similar wider view. It might work to their advantage, although then perhaps it’s not discrimination at all.
 
What I dont get is what the fudge have they got to do with anything regarding football?

Are they not acting out of their 'jurisdiction' and 'remit' by even mentioning anything regarding football and especially spurs and our use of the term Yid?

I dont know what they do (their site seems permanenetly down) but going on their name - are they not just supposed to assist black lawyers? why the fudge are they encroaching on football? Its a bit like THFC (or a group) discussing black rappers taking over the rap world and why arent white artists in there - the point is that the society has no vested interest in the football side of things.

This herbert chap seems like a taco personally and is on a crusade to bring some attention to his society by way of being a fudgein **** about things. Its actually totally counter productive because now his society has (maybe not permanenetly) damaged its reputation by their actions.
 
milo said:
Support, advice and mentorship should be more than enough which is exactly what white, male lawyers from certain backgrounds get from the old boys network.
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So why use a racially polarised name instead of calling it something to the tune of 'Young Lawyers Support Society'?
 
jts1882 said:
In the case of the Society of Black Lawyers/Solicitors, if their goal is to campaign against racism, why not call it the Society of Lawyers against Racism? Why use a racially polarized name?
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And that is exactly the point, calling themselves Society for Black lawyers is diverse it itself and would be no different then a group that calls itself Society for White lawyers. But i wonder which one would be called a racist group. :-k
 
johnola said:
Oh right, they are only concerned with equality in the legal profession..... and football it seems.
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Pay attention, fella.

The Black Solicitors Network is not the same thing as the Society of Black Lawyers. The former is a respected organisation that has been working to support black solicitors since 1995, not seeking the limelight and not getting involved in issues where it has no place.

The latter is pretty much a one man band which doesn't appear to have been in existence for very long and whose primary aim appears to be to get itself in the news by making silly statements about issues that are none of its business.
 
jimmyb said:
Pay attention, fella.

The Black Solicitors Network is not the same thing as the Society of Black Lawyers. The former is a respected organisation that has been working to support black solicitors since 1995, not seeking the limelight and not getting involved in issues where it has no place.

The latter is pretty much a one man band which doesn't appear to have been in existence for very long and whose primary aim appears to be to get itself in the news by making silly statements about issues that are none of its business.
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Splitters!
 
I have called Peter Herbert and accused myself of racism

I called him today that I have chanted Yid army for over 15 years now and am willing to pay the horrendous consequences. He hung up on me.I am guessing he does not care that much.
 
Re: I have called Peter Herbert and accused myself of racism

Just to clarify - he was on the phone for 15 minutes while you sang continuously?
 
Re: I have called Peter Herbert and accused myself of racism

Quality!

We'll sing whta we want
We'll sing what we want
We're the YID ARMY
We'll sing what we want!
 
Re: I have called Peter Herbert and accused myself of racism

07********, if anyone else would like to end this horrible blight on this clubs history. Yiddddddddds.


****Sorry, this guy may be a pr1ck, but I can't let you do that. - scara ********
 
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