The Official 2014/15 Premier League Thread

[billyiddo]

I disagree, smarter manager with better players, had wenger won one that would be variance

He's a bit of a flat track bully - hence his lack of European trophies

 

[Baleforce]

it's rare they win a game you wouldn't expect them to

 

[parklane1]

@parklane1 I'd be genuinely interested in what we have done differently over the years if you could condense it into a forum post, is it as simple and close skills and physicality?

That is not easy to do on a forum, but I worked in youth football and the big problem was for a lot of that time we ( and when I say we I mean the clubs) went for big and powerful rather then skillfull.

As I said Charles Hughes mantra was summed up by the following (Hughes presented his ideas in the now defunct magazine Match Analysis and concluded most goals were scored from three passes or fewer, therefore it was important to get the ball quickly forward as soon as possible.)

He took that into his job as the head coach of the FA and for years that was how the FA coaches of the ( then future) were taught. If you look for the following book its worth reading because it was for many years the bible for the FA courses, thankfully there were a few coaches who after passing the course explored other ways ( I was lucky enough to spend time at the Ajax academys and it was as different as chalk and cheese.

 

[Baleforce]

That is not easy to do on a forum, but I worked in youth football and the big problem was for a lot of that time we ( and when I say we I mean the clubs) went for big and powerful rather then skillfull.

As I said Charles Hughes mantra was summed up by the following (Hughes presented his ideas in the now defunct magazine Match Analysis and concluded most goals were scored from three passes or fewer, therefore it was important to get the ball quickly forward as soon as possible.)

He took that into his job as the head coach of the FA and for years that was how the FA coaches of the ( then future) were taught. If you look for the following book its worth reading because it was for many years the bible for the FA courses, thankfully there were a few coaches who after passing the course explored other ways ( I was lucky enough to spend time at the Ajax academys and it was as different as chalk and cheese.


View attachment 2316

thanks, so kids would be actively encouraged to get it and hit it long, win headers and shoot on sight?

 

[parklane1]

thanks, so kids would be actively encouraged to get it and hit it long, win headers and shoot on sight?

The was the official coaching book which you had to do to pass the badges, so yes a lot of coaches came out of that time and coached that way. As I have said some ( like me) we lucky enough to spend time at the academys abroad and picked up different ways.

What I saw at the Ajax school was mind blowing for me ( kids as young as 10 doing things with the ball that even boys twice that age at home were not able to do).

 

[Baleforce]

how would Ajax teach that, is it a set program, how are the kids assessed, what would make them discard a prospect?

is their any physical training done at all, is that perhaps a hole in the syllabus?

 

[Neymar]

I disagree, smarter manager with better players, had wenger won one that would be variance

so you think a mourinho chelsea side has an over 50% chance of being unbeaten in 13 attempts vs wenger's arsenal?

 

[Neymar]

Having worked in top coaching for most of my life I have to say you are so wrong, the reason why we turn out players who are not as talented in ball play as some from other Countrys is the coaching nothing to do with the refereeing criteria. I have spent time at the Ajax school and also in some of the Germany camps and they teach a different way of playing then the old English style. Most of this is down to a guy called Charles Hughes, he was head of coaching for the FA and also wrote the coaching manual that all FA coaches had to adhere to when going for the badges. Thankfully he has gone now but a lot of coaches in the game were taught with his mantra, times are changing but they are still coaches in the game who work to it.

i would argue that the style of coaching is directly linked to how football rules are interpretted. and also football coaching in england has been excellent for many years now (far better than they are in say south america), but we still dont produce players like neymar or suarez or messi. these kind of players are produced at grassroots(before they enter a coaching system), where local interpretation of football and the rules have a big influence in forming the characters required to produce a neymar.

 

[Baleforce]

so you think a mourinho chelsea side has an over 50% chance of being unbeaten in 13 attempts vs wenger's arsenal?

no, but I think in every one of those 13 matches Chelsea's were the more likely side to win, the longer the run goes on the more likely it is to be broken, but each in isolation on its own merits favours Chelsea

 

[Neymar]

no, but I think in every one of those 13 matches Chelsea's were the more likely side to win, the longer the run goes on the more likely it is to be broken, but each in isolation on its own merits favours Chelsea

but then thats not really much different to the comparison between any other two teams, where one has bigger resources than the other. us and arsenal for example

 

[parklane1]

how would Ajax teach that, is it a set program, how are the kids assessed, what would make them discard a prospect?

is their any physical training done at all, is that perhaps a hole in the syllabus?

Simple
(1) Good practise and showing how to do it.

(2) Yes

(3) By watching the progress and how they perform.

(4) Those who are unable or unwilling to learn.

(5) Not as much emphisis on the physical side as the technical side of the game.

Do not forget we are talking about very talented young players who have already shown promise. Also this was when I was still working ( I am now retired) so it may have changed. There has been progress made in England on training and developing young players over the last several years but its still slower then it needs to be.

 

[Baleforce]

@parklane1 thanks

 

[parklane1]

@parklane1 thanks

No probs mate, enjoyed the chat and it got my juices flowing again , there is nothing better ( imo) then coaching young players and seeing them perform during a game. I do miss it.

 

[Baleforce]

but then thats not really much different to the comparison between any other two teams, where one has bigger resources than the other. us and arsenal for example

did I suggest otherwise?

where it's interesting is where the smarter manager has inferior players and can still put a run together

 

[Neymar]

i dont think your comment (below) is fair on wenger. youre using the results as evidence to suggest that mourinho is the smarter manager. when in reality, those results are mainly just the consequence of the financial disparity and variance.

I disagree, smarter manager with better players, had wenger won one that would be variance

 

[jurgen lineker]

I disagree, so much of top class sport is mental, there's a reason Wenger has NEVER won a game against him and its not always what happens on the pitch

If by ‘mental’ you are referring to the ‘mind-games’ then I’d disagree, it's very much what happens on the pitch for me. Mind-games between managers are exaggerated by the media to help hype-up interest in games. The apparent influence mind-games have on a manager and in turn the result of a game is excessively exaggerated by the media as it helps sell a game.

I very much doubt that the exchange between Wenger and Mourinho had leading up to the game had any bearing on the outcome of the match yesterday. I’m struggling to think of any direct evidence to suggest otherwise. Both managers set-up as had been expected by pretty much all that know anything about the philosophy of both managers. The reason why Wenger struggles against Mourinho is quite simply because Wenger is not tactically astute enough to overcome the negative approach that Mourinho implements in big games. He is a one-dimensional manager that is unable to adapt his tactics to overcome teams of an equal quality to his, particularly in games that matter. Wenger is the master of steamrollering teams of a lesser quality but then coming unstuck to those that are of an equal quality. It’s for that very reason why he has failed in the CL.

I respect Wenger’s philosophy, i wish more would apply a similar style as I’m a fan of positive attractive football, but when you have such an inferior record against one of your apparent rivals it’s up to you to make adjustments, not change but make adjustments to overcome the areas that you are failing at. Wenger fails time and time again at this. True, the mental side of things may play a part to a degree, but when it comes to managers, tactics are what ultimately decide games, which is why Wenger fails so miserably against Mourinho.

 

[Neymar]

jurgen linekar,

but arsenal are not of "equal quality" to chelsea. look at the teams directly below arsenal (in terms of quality): us and liverpool. their record against the top sides isnt great either. i dont think its because of any tactical deficiencies in the sides. its simply because they're not quite as good.

i agree with you re the mind games though.

 

[Baleforce]

i dont think your comment (below) is fair on wenger. youre using the results as evidence to suggest that mourinho is the smarter manager. when in reality, those results are mainly just the consequence of the financial disparity and variance.

yep, but there is a reason Jose has managed Inter and Real and won a couple of European Cups, he's not a better manager than Wenger because he's unbeaten in 13, he's unbeaten in 13 because he's a better manager

 

[Neymar]

yep, but there is a reason Jose has managed Inter and Real and won a couple of European Cups, he's not a better manager than Wenger because he's unbeaten in 13, he's unbeaten in 13 because he's a better manager

wenger couldve managed clubs of that calibre too though. hes just decided not to. but if he had, i have no doubt he wouldve won more trophies.

and hes unbeaten in 13 mainly down to variance. to spin it any other way is wrong. the fact that he is probably going to be unable to repeat this run of form is evidence of this.

 

[Baleforce]

wenger couldve managed clubs of that calibre too though. hes just decided not to. but if he had, i have no doubt he wouldve won more trophies.

and hes unbeaten in 13 mainly down to variance. to spin it any other way is wrong. the fact that he is probably going to be unable to repeat this run of form is evidence of this.

decided not to or wasn't confident enough to? is that in itself evidence of a mental block

let's also not forget that the disparity between squads has varied over time