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The Goon Thread

Grays_1890 said:
I don't know, Fergi ran Man United like this and they were better for it, its old school maybe but football clubs are better for it if the man who has the control is right, Wenger has been right as he shared the boards philosophy and delivered on it, as Fergi did, Fergis goals were larger because Man United are arguably the largest club in the world. In the Mourinho sense at Chelsea it was not the right way as he can not be trusted with a club in the same way.

If we had a manager like that I doubt we would be shouting and calling the guy a Pr1ck, did we do that to Bill Nic? I am too young to know, but thats a serious question?
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I also don't know about how we treated Bill Nic, it's a fair question.
However, Fergie had a lot of control at Manure for sure. The difference between him and Wenger is that he:

1) always aimed for the top and didn't let new "big money" coming into the PL (i.e. Chelski and Emirates Marketing Project) as an excuse to stop trying to actually win the big trophies (i.e. PL and CL); Arsenal given their finances are not actually trying to win those trophies, just to finish in top 4. In fact they are cowards in that regard, and Wenger the most cowardly among their hierarchy. Their recent purchases in the last 4 years (when 'officially' they have not been restricted by any stadium repayments) is testament to that

2) Fergie kept evolving his footballing approaches and tactics by continually changing his coaching staff set-up every few years to keep things refreshed/bring in new ideas, e.g. McClaren to Quieroz to Meulensteen etc. Wenger is known to have full control over all footballing matters to such a point that on his bench vs Chelski, whilst Conte had about 3 or 4 actual coaches who he has worked with over much of his managerial career, Wenger had Steve Bould, a fitness coach and TWO Kit managers! That's because Wenger whilst wanting to enjoy total control will not tolerate working with people who might also inject new and different views (he apparently actively avoids confrontation almost at all costs).

3) Wenger and Fergie both went through spells when large sections of the fanbase wanted them out; Fergie rode through it and often turned on the press if anything; Wenger has resorted to actively trolling his fans: "be more like Spurs fans", "Before i came to Arsenal, who were you" etc. He is showing disdain when the pressure is truly on, but in reality he has has things very cushy from a media scrutiny point of view (compared to many other managers in the top 4/6) and with a bit of pressure a window into his true personality can be seen: he thinks he is actually bigger than Arsenal. Just imagine if the likes of Fergie or Bill Nic actually said things along those lines (even if they may have thought it)??

Another thing to highlight on Arsenal fan frustrations is the fact that dissent is actually clamped down on like the KGB: they are not allowed to bring in banners asking for Wenger to politely go (e.g. the "Thanks for the memories Arsene but it's time to say good bye") and so they mostly have to take them for the away matches (and even then it has been known for club stewards to follow the fans at the away grounds and forcibily confiscate them there). One can only assume that at the top Wenger has a hand in those decisions. Truly maddening. Wenger may not like to see the banner but if he can't handle that, how would he have coped with those Fergie sometimes had to see??

The stasis at Arsenal and the feeling of being unable to REALLY voice their misgivings is causing the fan vitriol you see via Arsenal FanTV and social media in general.
As a Spurs fan i'm finding it hilarious, but i totally understand where they are coming from.
Long may Wenger reign
 
glorygloryeze said:
I also don't know about how we treated Bill Nic, it's a fair question.
However, Fergie had a lot of control at Manure for sure. The difference between him and Wenger is that he:

1) always aimed for the top and didn't let new "big money" coming into the PL (i.e. Chelski and Emirates Marketing Project) as an excuse to stop trying to actually win the big trophies (i.e. PL and CL); Arsenal given their finances are not actually trying to win those trophies, just to finish in top 4. In fact they are cowards in that regard, and Wenger the most cowardly among their hierarchy. Their recent purchases in the last 4 years (when 'officially' they have not been restricted by any stadium repayments) is testament to that

2) Fergie kept evolving his footballing approaches and tactics by continually changing his coaching staff set-up every few years to keep things refreshed/bring in new ideas, e.g. McClaren to Quieroz to Meulensteen etc. Wenger is known to have full control over all footballing matters to such a point that on his bench vs Chelski, whilst Conte had about 3 or 4 actual coaches who he has worked with over much of his managerial career, Wenger had Steve Bould, a fitness coach and TWO Kit managers! That's because Wenger whilst wanting to enjoy total control will not tolerate working with people who might also inject new and different views (he apparently actively avoids confrontation almost at all costs).

3) Wenger and Fergie both went through spells when large sections of the fanbase wanted them out; Fergie rode through it and often turned on the press if anything; Wenger has resorted to actively trolling his fans: "be more like Spurs fans", "Before i came to Arsenal, who were you" etc. He is showing disdain when the pressure is truly on, but in reality he has has things very cushy from a media scrutiny point of view (compared to many other managers in the top 4/6) and with a bit of pressure a window into his true personality can be seen: he thinks he is actually bigger than Arsenal. Just imagine if the likes of Fergie or Bill Nic actually said things along those lines (even if they may have thought it)??

Another thing to highlight on Arsenal fan frustrations is the fact that dissent is actually clamped down on like the KGB: they are not allowed to bring in banners asking for Wenger to politely go (e.g. the "Thanks for the memories Arsene but it's time to say good bye") and so they mostly have to take them for the away matches (and even then it has been known for club stewards to follow the fans at the away grounds and forcibily confiscate them there). One can only assume that at the top Wenger has a hand in those decisions. Truly maddening. Wenger may not like to see the banner but if he can't handle that, how would he have coped with those Fergie sometimes had to see??

The stasis at Arsenal and the feeling of being unable to REALLY voice their misgivings is causing the fan vitriol you see via Arsenal FanTV and social media in general.
As a Spurs fan i'm finding it hilarious, but i totally understand where they are coming from.
Long may Wenger reign
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And Arsenal fans pay the highest ticket prices in world football (possibly world sport) for a team who basically aim for top 4 here and top 16 in Europe

When you pay top top dollar you have a right to a higher expectation
 
Bedfordspurs said:
And Arsenal fans pay the highest ticket prices in world football (possibly world sport) for a team who basically aim for top 4 here and top 16 in Europe

When you pay top top dollar you have a right to a higher expectation
Click to expand...

See I don't agree with that, Supporting is not a financial commodity in my book
 
Grays_1890 said:
See I don't agree with that, Supporting is not a financial commodity in my book
Click to expand...

It's isn't but if you ask people to pay the highest prices then surely you set the expectation level

You pay £150 to see U2.., if they played 5 songs and didn't bother even tuning their instruments would that be acceptable?

How about paying £100 to go to the theatre only for the performers to only actually do half the show as they can't be asked for the remainder
 
Bedfordspurs said:
It's isn't but if you ask people to pay the highest prices then surely you set the expectation level

You pay £150 to see U2.., if they played 5 songs and didn't bother even tuning their instruments would that be acceptable?

How about paying £100 to go to the theatre only for the performers to only actually do half the show as they can't be asked for the remainder
Click to expand...

I don't choose to follow U2 or the Theatre unconditionally like I do Spurs though. Your example is not comparable really, the only way would be if Arsenal walked off the pitch at half time and not coming back.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I don't choose to follow U2 or the Theatre unconditionally like I do Spurs though. Your example is not comparable really, the only way would be if Arsenal walked off the pitch at half time and not coming back.
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The reason I believe its comparable is to do with the players choosing not to perform

Not being good enough is one thing and as consumers of the product we have a choice to make

But for players to simply not put any effort it commensurate to their pay and the fees you are being charged to watch is IMO not right
 
Most people don't support a team based on finance, I know plenty of people who can't afford to follow their team but none who follow a team based entry price. The price of test cricket tinkles me off, I can watch every day of Middlesex home games for the same price as two days of a test match.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
The reason I believe its comparable is to do with the players choosing not to perform

Not being good enough is one thing and as consumers of the product we have a choice to make

But for players to simply not put any effort it commensurate to their pay and the fees you are being charged to watch is IMO not right
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But then we disagree again because I don't believe Arsenal players or the manager go onto the pitch and purposely put no effort in. Its just in the modern game there are better teams out there and that goes back to my original point, Arsenal fans do not accept that Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project and Man United are bigger powers than they are now.

Thats why your point also holds no relevance for me also, because the U2s performance would not be affected by Oasis coming on to boot them off, where as Arsenal have to deal with a Kevin DeBruyne and Aguero
 
Grays_1890 said:
But then we disagree again because I don't believe Arsenal players or the manager go onto the pitch and purposely put no effort in. Its just in the modern game there are better teams out there and that goes back to my original point, Arsenal fans do not accept that Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project and Man United are bigger powers than they are now.

Thats why your point also holds no relevance for me also, because the U2s performance would not be affected by Oasis coming on to boot them off, where as Arsenal have to deal with a Kevin DeBruyne and Aguero
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Arse fans I know do accept their not as big a power as the ones you mention. They laid moan that they pay more than anyone in world football for mediocrity

Hell their more fickle than Spurs fans and that says a lot

Most also argue that now as their supper wealthy why aren't they spending the money on quality players to reflect the prices they pay... there is a correlation
 
Bedfordspurs said:
It's isn't but if you ask people to pay the highest prices then surely you set the expectation level

You pay £150 to see U2.., if they played 5 songs and didn't bother even tuning their instruments would that be acceptable?

How about paying £100 to go to the theatre only for the performers to only actually do half the show as they can't be asked for the remainder
Click to expand...
If you've paid £150 to see U2, the best result you can possibly hope for is that they don't turn up.

At least then the worst thing you'll have to endure is standing in a stadium with a load of U2 fans.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Arse fans I know do accept their not as big a power as the ones you mention. They laid moan that they pay more than anyone in world football for mediocrity

Hell their more fickle than Spurs fans and that says a lot

Most also argue that now as their supper wealthy why aren't they spending the money on quality players to reflect the prices they pay... there is a correlation
Click to expand...

But again watching your team play and backing them against all comers must be worth whatever people are willing to pay? Arsenal are not to blame for how much they charge if people are willing to pay it and they sell out.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Arse fans I know do accept their not as big a power as the ones you mention. They laid moan that they pay more than anyone in world football for mediocrity

Hell their more fickle than Spurs fans and that says a lot

Most also argue that now as their supper wealthy why aren't they spending the money on quality players to reflect the prices they pay... there is a correlation
Click to expand...
But they have soent money. ozil, Sanchez, xhaki, mustafa. It's not as though they haven't spent money they just haven't spent where they needed.
 
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