The Crossroads...

[thfcsteff]

I think more than anything, I am finding that this season is showing me I am at a crossroads with regards to some types of people who are supporting my club versus people like me.

First of all, I am finding that how someone views a manager will often shape both their opinion of the club and of some of the supporters following it.
Do you view the manager as nothing more than a handsomely-paid employee whose sole job is to deliver success?
Or do you view the manager as someone whose job is to bring a club forward on and off the pitch, both via results and reputation?
Do you crave a Mourinho, who has little regard for the long-term health of a club as he stays nowhere longer than three or four seasons max, and thus behaves like a selfish, petulant CEO who won't rest until he gets his way whatever the collateral damage?
Or do you crave a Pochettino, who looks to ensure that a club is set to keep growing, embeds a philosophy and attitude into the fabric and helps enhance the club's status internationally via behavior and results?

I believe the definition you choose of a manager above will dictate what you think of Pochettino.
Those who would take the Mourinho route are likely to have little empathy (I was told a while back that good business and empathy are not compatible - a comment I refute BTW) or appreciation for past and will look for blood when things wobble.

I have said it before and I will say it again. If Mourinho were to ever manage this great club, it would take a Fatberg size lump of rich, steaming hypocrisy for me to accept him. A piece of my Tottenham me would fade way, much like it did when the fudging clown shoe from Scumbury rocked up too many years ago; I actually turned down a League Cup Final ticket in 99 because "he" was in charge.

It would -IMO- be selling out what this club is about. It is not about tossers like Mourinho and GGG. It is about the likes of Burkinshaw, Jol, Pochettino and Sir Bill. Men of honor and integrity, men who understood what this club is and men who tried (and try) their hardest to maintain the standards, dignity and pride necessary to be at the helm of this brilliant club.

For the many who seem ready to dispense with Pochettino, sorry, I think you're missing the point personally. It is only my opinion. But answer me this...has any manager other than Burkinshaw brought you the joyous nights and emotions this man has in the last four decades?

There are games which stand out in my mind as being emblems of what we are. The 81 Cup Final replay v Wolves, the Final replay that year, the smashing of Feyenoord 4-2, the smashing of the goons 5-1 in that semi are a few...the 2-2 Battle Of The Bridge is right in there, as are the 4-1 smashing of Liverpool, the 6-2 smashing of Everton and Ajax away in the SF last year.

I will also never ever, EVER forget flying in to Madrid. I had returned from Africa only a few days earlier, and undertook a 24 hour round-trip journey vis New York. Meeting my mate (with whom I go to my 10 or so games a year and have done for a couple decades since my ST days - I have lived abroad for a long time) at the airport was one of the most emotional football moments I have ever had.
We had spoken for years about whether we would ever experience that day in our lives.
We were there.
Experiencing it.
Whatever the disappointment, whatever the costs emotionally and fiscally, we were there and by fudging GHod we were in heaven for most of that day and evening until 9.01pm.

I cannot forget that or the other moments, and I will not. For me, the manager deserves the chance to try and build a side like that one more time, and having learnt where we fell short with this generation, improve it so as the next time we go one step beyond.

There again, I believe the game is about glory and is about doing things with style and a flourish...

 

[Lemonade Money]

 

[monkeybarry]

Is that the same Pochettino that said he would quit if we won one game of football in May?
Or was losing that game part of his master plan for longevity?

 

[thfcsteff]

Is that the same Pochettino that said he would quit if we won one game of football in May?
Or was losing that game part of his master plan for longevity?

If you think he said that you are forgoing an awful lot of context.

 

[nayenezgani]

Is that the same Pochettino that said he would quit if we won one game of football in May?
Or was losing that game part of his master plan for longevity?

He clearly likes to toy with the media. It's also clear he doesn't enjoy the English press a whole lot, but who does?

Finally English isn't his first language so context, nuance and the literal translation isn't always perfect.

I can't believe I'm still having to explain this to people mind you... Great post @thfcsteff.

 

[billyiddo]

If you think he said that you are forgoing an awful lot of context.

i have to assume people are willfully misinterpreting him at this point.

 

[thfcsteff]

i have to assume people are willfully misinterpreting him at this point.

Probably.
I started this thread outside the Poch thread to see if anyone would take on how they view a modern manager (employee doing a job or was there more in it for them). Sadly, we have already come back to this. I have to presume some people don’t care who runs the ship.

 

[Baleforce]

I’m definitely in the former, the manager is part of a system, tasked with processing a given input to a successful output.

I think you can distill sports fans into two types, numbers and narrative. Neither side can understand the other.

Yes the game is about glory, but glory is determined by a calculation of success against potential, and with the position in which the club is now in, imo, “glory” is only possible by winning either the PL or the CL. Not to say that we “should” be doing that, only that, to fall just shy is no more than par.

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m definitely in the former, the manager is part of a system, tasked with processing a given input to a successful output.

I think you can distill sports fans into two types, numbers and narrative. Neither side can understand the other.

Yes the game is about glory, but glory is determined by a calculation of success against potential, and with the position in which the club is now in, imo, “glory” is only possible by winning either the PL or the CL. Not to say that we “should” be doing that, only that, to fall just shy is no more than par.

Appreciate the response mate. It is (I think) an interesting sub-topic and I think your numbers/narrative observation is spot-on.

 

[monkeybarry]

Probably.
I started this thread outside the Poch thread to see if anyone would take on how they view a modern manager (employee doing a job or was there more in it for them). Sadly, we have already come back to this. I have to presume some people don’t care who runs the ship.

Using Poch Vs Mourinho immediately skews the thinking with that conversation.

But coming back to the hypothetical you aimed your original post to - the answer is both.
The manager is a part of building a culture around the club, and has to be one of the central parts because the ultimate objective is to win football matches.
The management has to be on message, along with the board, the youth team, the marketing team etc.
The manager should exude the club's message most prominently, because he is the public figurehead.
But the overall ethos and direction should be the Tottenham Hotspur direction, not the Poch direction.
Poch should has significantly influence over this and bring the skills and personality to compliment it and develop it, but it needs to stay bigger than one role within the club - otherwise you have no continuity planning.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I’m definitely in the former, the manager is part of a system, tasked with processing a given input to a successful output.

I think you can distill sports fans into two types, numbers and narrative. Neither side can understand the other.

Yes the game is about glory, but glory is determined by a calculation of success against potential, and with the position in which the club is now in, imo, “glory” is only possible by winning either the PL or the CL. Not to say that we “should” be doing that, only that, to fall just shy is no more than par.

People invest a lot of themselves and it becomes personal, emotive.

Its also a business. Both on and off the field.

These two things sometimes gel together beautifully, but often times clash.

Steff is clearly very invested, very romantic about the whole thing. Its admirable, but its not always objective.

Some people are very objective, perhaps coldly so, and I can completely understand that not being to the more emotive types liking.

Me? Theres what I want, and what I get, and an acceptance they are not always the same.

And thats where this conversation gets messy.

Steff talks about wanting a manager with integrity, someone to build a legacy, bring glory the more emotive/romantic way - and I can buy every word of it. I mean, who wouldnt?

Problem is, the flip side is - Im not seeing what he is seeing.

So as romantic as I might like to be, my objectivity doesnt support it at this time.

Ive said so many times this season, Ill take bad results - providing I can see the plan/work/project in place and being enacted. I just dont see it at this point. To the point where I very much am losing faith in Pochettino and his ability to pull it together.

Patience for patience sake is not a virtue. Poch needs to be earning it as we speak, not sitting on past successes hoping things will turn. We need to see the fruits of his labour on the training field. And I reiterate - thats not a results thing.

The job of a manager, ultimately, is to get the best out of the resources he has. Theres much besides, of course, but thats really what it boils down to.

When we were mid table and brick but had Jol getting the most out of that team - was anyone complaining? Even when we lost matches? Had an iffy run? Not really. We could see the work coming through and the team performing near its peak.

When AVB took a better group of players and turned them into manequins - was anyone complaining? Damn right! He should have been doing so much more with the players at hand.

Results wise these guys had similar seasons, but the view of them was entirely different. The reason being, one was getting near as much as possible out of the squad, and one wasnt.

When Jol went, I thought it was right, I thought he had reached his limit - where we had not. No animosity, no hard feelings, just an acceptance that it was time. When Redknapp went I thought exactly the same.

Poch? Its starting to feel that way.

I REALLY want to see him getting a grip on things, showing some direction, getting us playing. I really do. But as it is, we are miles from our best under him - let alone improving on that. There are deeper issues at play than just "injuries" "want away players" etc.

Romantically, I want nothing more than for Poch to wake up and really show his stuff. Objectively, this feels very much like an end of an era IMHO.

 

[scaramanga]

I REALLY want to see him getting a grip on things, showing some direction, getting us playing. I really do. But as it is, we are miles from our best under him - let alone improving on that. There are deeper issues at play than just "injuries" "want away players" etc.

Romantically, I want nothing more than for Poch to wake up and really show his stuff. Objectively, this feels very much like an end of an era IMHO.

This sums it up very well for me.

I want us to succeed and I want Poch to be the one to do it. The first half of that statement is infinitely more important than the second.

 

[glasgowspur]

Are we in the stage of growth every club reaches where the expectations become a millstone.
Do we become a Bolton under big Sam, a Charlton under curbishly and sink under the fans impatience, or stick with the project to be a nots forest under clough, man u under fergie.
It's never a straight line climb to the top, and whether it's poch or someone else I for one hope we stick with the long term project and don't sell it down the river for a few cups under a Jose or benitez.
It's nice to win cups but that's not why I support spurs (just as well really, 5 cups in 30 odd years), I follow spurs as its a reflection on who I am.
Call me romantic or naive but I want my/our victories to be more than just an tick on a chart, I want them to have some meaning, be part of a bigger plan.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I'd rather back Poch than the players, but I'm not even sure he wants to be here.
The problem as I see it, is I can't see it getting sorted in the January window, so we'll have to put up with the situation until the summer. That will take a lot of resolve from fans and chairman.
At the end of the day, the one constant in our rise towards the top is Levy. I'll be more concerned when it looks like he's leaving.

The thing with Poch, is why did we stop our pressing game, when we tired out teams and steamrollered them in the last 15 minutes of a game? If this is too tiring on the players, and Poch has adjusted to suit, why not just accept a Poch team needs a constant big throughput of players to keep it going? Is this why the empty windows have been so damaging? Is this why so many players have turned to brick?

 

[Finney Is Back]

As you know already I'm with you Steff. Something that I do wonder is whether there is a split between the fans that go to a most/many games vs those that are more casual fans? I have no idea whether or not this is the case, but I know that some of those wanting him gone on here are those that attend very few games. I go to pretty much all of the home games and a majority of the aways. From what I have experienced (specifically at the away games where it is 90% the same faces every game) the backing for Poch is still there. Perhaps that is because we are the fans that have had to sit through so much crap in over these last 25 years or so and realise that the last 4 years or so have been the best that we have had it for a long while and are taking the club back to where it belongs.

Pochettino has already built one excellent team at Spurs that was able to outpunch clubs with far larger resources. I think he deserves the backing to attempt to build a second iteration of that, especially now that our resources are moving closer to some of those 'bigger' clubs. I think some on here do not appreciate how hard it is to take a football club with the 6th biggest wage budget and, what?... 10th biggest transfer budget? into a regular CL qualification position. Pochettino is the only manager to have done this in the big European leagues. Of course Pochettino may not be able to repeat this but the odds are firmly in favour of us definitely NOT being able to repeat this if we bring in another manager. Of course we could get lucky, but we would be getting VERY lucky as no other clubs in Europe seem to have found this magic formula.

What I would like to see is Pochettino getting the FULL backing of his chairman for the next couple of years. That means discarding the players that the manager doesn't want even if it means getting 20, 30 or even 40% less than what the chairman considers their value to be and getting in the players the manager wants early even if it means not squeezing the selling club for every penny. Give the manager the tools that he needs and then lets see if he sinks or swims.

 

[StephenH]

I don’t like or dislike Pochettino. He is here to do one thing, win!

I can think of very few managers who I care about as characters, they all bore me!

Do your job or get the feck out!
So with that, the current incumbent need to step up!
Simple as that!

 

[Modric THFC]

Steff I'm completely against Mourinho and the damage he will be PR wise against the club.

But the era of long term managers is over. When's the last time any manager has rebuilt a side successfully. Ferguson is the huge outlier. He's relic that still looms large over English football giving people the idea that you can have a long term manager.

Club can't afford finacially to do the type of clearouts that were possible in the 1980s. You can't have two seasons in the relegation zone and then a tilt at the Division One title any more. You wont have the money for it. You lose out on the European money and half the players will want out.

It'd love it be like it was back then. I'd love for Poch to stay on and rebuild a second team.
But Levy will still be there. He wont shift the 10+ players that are needed out for a real rebuild. Not just get rid of the "evil four" players as they are just the problem. There's also the issue that Poch takes another season to actually play the players he signs. And does does Poch even want to be here?

 

[Mikey10]

People invest a lot of themselves and it becomes personal, emotive.

Its also a business. Both on and off the field.

These two things sometimes gel together beautifully, but often times clash.

Steff is clearly very invested, very romantic about the whole thing. Its admirable, but its not always objective.

Some people are very objective, perhaps coldly so, and I can completely understand that not being to the more emotive types liking.

Me? Theres what I want, and what I get, and an acceptance they are not always the same.

And thats where this conversation gets messy.

Steff talks about wanting a manager with integrity, someone to build a legacy, bring glory the more emotive/romantic way - and I can buy every word of it. I mean, who wouldnt?

Problem is, the flip side is - Im not seeing what he is seeing.

So as romantic as I might like to be, my objectivity doesnt support it at this time.

Ive said so many times this season, Ill take bad results - providing I can see the plan/work/project in place and being enacted. I just dont see it at this point. To the point where I very much am losing faith in Pochettino and his ability to pull it together.

Patience for patience sake is not a virtue. Poch needs to be earning it as we speak, not sitting on past successes hoping things will turn. We need to see the fruits of his labour on the training field. And I reiterate - thats not a results thing.

The job of a manager, ultimately, is to get the best out of the resources he has. Theres much besides, of course, but thats really what it boils down to.

When we were mid table and brick but had Jol getting the most out of that team - was anyone complaining? Even when we lost matches? Had an iffy run? Not really. We could see the work coming through and the team performing near its peak.

When AVB took a better group of players and turned them into manequins - was anyone complaining? Damn right! He should have been doing so much more with the players at hand.

Results wise these guys had similar seasons, but the view of them was entirely different. The reason being, one was getting near as much as possible out of the squad, and one wasnt.

When Jol went, I thought it was right, I thought he had reached his limit - where we had not. No animosity, no hard feelings, just an acceptance that it was time. When Redknapp went I thought exactly the same.

Poch? Its starting to feel that way.

I REALLY want to see him getting a grip on things, showing some direction, getting us playing. I really do. But as it is, we are miles from our best under him - let alone improving on that. There are deeper issues at play than just "injuries" "want away players" etc.

Romantically, I want nothing more than for Poch to wake up and really show his stuff. Objectively, this feels very much like an end of an era IMHO.

Great post which pretty much sums up my feelings.

I’d add that it’s my belief that we have seen the last of a managing dynasty at a club, a la Fergie and Wenger. The game has changed and the players have the power. For me, Poch at Spurs is akin to Klopp at Dortmund (without the trophies). As Klopp said, in the sixth season the players simply stopped listening to him.

 

[monkeybarry]

Great post which pretty much sums up my feelings.

I’d add that it’s my belief that we have seen the last of a managing dynasty at a club, a la Fergie and Wenger. The game has changed and the players have the power. For me, Poch at Spurs is akin to Klopp at Dortmund (without the trophies). As Klopp said, in the sixth season the players simply stopped listening to him.

I think Klopp might be the exception to that. I guess next two years will tell and/or when one of the front three leaves.

I didn't know about his 6 years at Dortmund statement. Very interesting. I really like his as a manager (That'll get me banned!) - very honest and self aware

 

[Finney Is Back]

Great post which pretty much sums up my feelings.

I’d add that it’s my belief that we have seen the last of a managing dynasty at a club, a la Fergie and Wenger. The game has changed and the players have the power. For me, Poch at Spurs is akin to Klopp at Dortmund (without the trophies). As Klopp said, in the sixth season the players simply stopped listening to him.

Should we take a little caution though in looking at the fortunes of Man Utd and Arsenal since they departed with those managers? Neither have been able to find anyone anywhere near as good so far.