So, what happened today?

[glasgowspur]

I don’t disagree with this. My initial response was to the idea that anyone trans might be a “wrong-un” and up to no good.

From the sidelines, and I am very much on the sidelines, I have no dog in the fight, I willing accept* that there are genuine trans people out there, that they should have the same rights and protections as everyone else.
However I also accept that there are far more people (almost entirely men) out there who will use every means possible to abuse women.
In my honest opinion in a rush to do the correct thing (or to be seen to do the correct thing) by trans people due diligence has not been done and circumstances that should have been for seen haven't been and we are now where we are, polarised.
It did not have to be this way.


*almost 40 years ago I worked with a person who was transitioning from female to male, initially on the building site of the Glasgow Garden Festival and later actually on the GGF.
I do have experience of trans people, granted a long time ago, it was a very positive experience.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Normal men are fine on the most part
Men who apply for a card to pretend to be a woman are not

Serious questions as I haven't followed this situation at all...

Is the 'trans' person just mimicking being trans to have access to female spaces etc or are they actually trans and just a wrongun much like you find in any walk of life?

Has there been a string of cases (or even incidents) where a snide trans person (for want of a better phrase) has committed a crime/act against a woman?

Or are there bigger issues at play that I'm probably missing?

 

[kb 1984]

Normal men are fine on the most part
Men who apply for a card to pretend to be a woman are not

Even in our new stadium ???

Please explain what are normal men because prisons are full of so called normal men that have raped women & children. So called good men get drunk go home beat there wives & children.these are the men you should be concerned about.

i happen to know 2 transgender people & they wouldn't hurt anybody infact if they came across a woman being attacked they would go to her aid. The only wronguns are people that jump to conclusions about people they no nothing about

 

[glasgowspur]

Serious questions as I haven't followed this situation at all...

Is the 'trans' person just mimicking being trans to have access to female spaces etc or are they actually trans and just a wrongun much like you find in any walk of life?

Has there been a string of cases (or even incidents) where a snide trans person (for want of a better phrase) has committed a crime/act against a woman?

Or are there bigger issues at play that I'm probably missing?

That's the crux though isn't it, there are bad people in all walks of life.
Being trans doesn't make you any more or less likely to be a good un or a wrong un.


There have been numerous cases of abuse against women by perpetrators claiming to be trans.

Yes there are bigger issues, it was badly constructed legislation that was open to abuse and putting women in danger.

 

[glasgowspur]

Please explain what are normal men because prisons are full of so called normal men that have raped women & children. So called good men get drunk go home beat there wives & children.these are the men you should be concerned about.

i happen to know 2 transgender people & they wouldn't hurt anybody infact if they came across a woman being attacked they would go to her aid. The only wronguns are people that jump to conclusions about people they no nothing about

Those are not normal men, normal men don't *struggle cuddle* or abuse children.

My experience of transgender people is similar to your own, only positive.

There are bad men out there, you acknowledge that yourself, this is about them.

The really sad part is that the highlight is being shone onto the trans community and away from the dangerous abusers.

 

[kb 1984]

Those are not normal men, normal men don't *struggle cuddle* or abuse children.

My experience of transgender people is similar to your own, only positive.

There are bad men out there, you acknowledge that yourself, this is about them.

The really sad part is that the highlight is being shone onto the trans community and away from the dangerous abusers.

Agreed those people are not normal but some of them were considered normal before being caught.

What I find strange is some people just can't let people be whatever they want to be after all at our core we are all just human beings

 

[glasgowspur]

Agreed those people are not normal but some of them were considered normal before being caught.

What I find strange is some people just can't let people be whatever they want to be after all at our core we are all just human beings

And it's protection from these men that women are looking for, the law was refusing to accept that these dangers are real, that not only are the concerns justified but that it is illegal for you to express those concerns.
It could actually turn the abused into the victim.

I'm with you, someone else having a lifestyle different from mine is no business of mine.
If it makes them happy, is not harming others then what has it to do with me, let them be.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

And under the law the Scottish government wanted to pass (and that is what this case is really all about, badly written legislation) you can have as many stewards on the door as you want, if a man says he is a woman you're breaking the law by stopping him entering the safe space or by complaining about it.
Self ID with no checks is open to abuse, the law was ill thought out, badly written and rushed through ignoring legal and medical advice and public consultation.

Yep it was a really poorly thought out piece of legislation and suspect was more about a desire on Sturgeon's part to differentiate herself from the "nasty right wing" UK govt and make case that Scotland needed to be independent to have a moral compass than a desire to write good law. Some of the points made by the judges in the supreme court ruling highlight how poor the draft legislation was: one of the points being that the Scottish government sought to hinge recognition of transitioned sex on the obtaiming of a GRC, but persons are prohibited by law in requiring to see proof of a GRC being in place and therefore bodies providing gender specific services would have no legal means to determine whether they were upholding or breaking the law by providing such services to a trans person. And the requirement to obtain a GRC to be dealt with according to someone's chosen gender identity could in itself be seen as discriminatory and therefore contrary to equalities legislation.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

That's the crux though isn't it, there are bad people in all walks of life.
Being trans doesn't make you any more or less likely to be a good un or a wrong un.


There have been numerous cases of abuse against women by perpetrators claiming to be trans.

Yes there are bigger issues, it was badly constructed legislation that was open to abuse and putting women in danger.

Right, so taking what you're saying as being true (ie numerous cases of abuse against women), does this mean there are men, that to be able to access the opportunity to abuse women (in whatever form), go the whole hog of claiming to be trans (registering?)and also adopting the look of a trans person (forgive me if a trans person doesn't have 'a look', Mark (Matilda) the one I am an acquaintance of certainly does) just to be able to 'gain access' to a pathway to abuse women?

Now if I'm looking at the man in that situation, I'm thinking he's definitely weird and probably has some mental health issues?

Maybe I'm being too literal and there's more to it.?

 

[glasgowspur]

Right, so taking what you're saying as being true (ie numerous cases of abuse against women), does this mean there are men, that to be able to access the opportunity to abuse women (in whatever form), go the whole hog of claiming to be trans (registering?)and also adopting the look of a trans person (forgive me if a trans person doesn't have 'a look', Mark (Matilda) the one I am an acquaintance of certainly does) just to be able to 'gain access' to a pathway to abuse women?

Now if I'm looking at the man in that situation, I'm thinking he's definitely weird and probably has some mental health issues?

Maybe I'm being too literal and there's more to it.?

The new proposed law meant that you could self I'd, you told your gp you wanted to identify as a male/female and a GRC was issued.
Several institutions and women's associations raised concerns.
They were told "your concerns are not valid", direct quote from the Scottish first minister.
When examples of the concerns were highlighted the Scottish government rather than amendment the legislation doubled down with statements like"but just as they're transphobic you'll also find that they're deeply misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well ". Again direct quote from the FM.
So in effect the" whole hog" was telling your gp that you are now a woman, that was it, there was nothing else.
A man, any man could do this, even a convicted double rapist.

Despite the denial from the FM many people believe that it is this stubbornness that led to the collapse of the Snp vote and ultimately her falling on her sword.

 

[glasgowspur]

Yep it was a really poorly thought out piece of legislation and suspect was more about a desire on Sturgeon's part to differentiate herself from the "nasty right wing" UK govt and make case that Scotland needed to be independent to have a moral compass than a desire to write good law. Some of the points made by the judges in the supreme court ruling highlight how poor the draft legislation was: one of the points being that the Scottish government sought to hinge recognition of transitioned sex on the obtaiming of a GRC, but persons are prohibited by law in requiring to see proof of a GRC being in place and therefore bodies providing gender specific services would have no legal means to determine whether they were upholding or breaking the law by providing such services to a trans person.

At it's heart this argument is not about trans, it's about proper legistive procedures.
It's an absolute disgrace that the trans community have been thrown under a bus by this, they think they have a champion, they are wrong and will find it out soon enough.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

At it's heart this argument is not about trans, it's about proper legistive procedures.
It's an absolute disgrace that the trans community have been thrown under a bus by this, they think they have a champion, they are wrong and will find it out soon enough.

100%. This was not a fight on behalf of trans people, it was a desire to pick a public fight with WM and attempt to create a constitutional crisis by having WM take the unprecedented step of intervening to block the Scottish Parliament thus presenting the SNP with the perfect "this why devolution isn't good enough" argument....I'm pretty sure there'll have been some in depth SNP analysis as to which hill to die on that can be framed in the "plucky Scots standing up for freedom and equity being crushed by the evil right wing Trump lovers in England". They knew Equalities legislation was not a devolved matter and actually the reason the legislation is so poor was they had to word it in such a way as to seem like they were at worsr naive in terms of avoiding legislating in an area they had no jurisdiction, but was also clearly couched enough in the relevant legal terms to force a WM intervention"

 

[Grays_1890]

Right, so taking what you're saying as being true (ie numerous cases of abuse against women), does this mean there are men, that to be able to access the opportunity to abuse women (in whatever form), go the whole hog of claiming to be trans (registering?)and also adopting the look of a trans person (forgive me if a trans person doesn't have 'a look', Mark (Matilda) the one I am an acquaintance of certainly does) just to be able to 'gain access' to a pathway to abuse women?

Now if I'm looking at the man in that situation, I'm thinking he's definitely weird and probably has some mental health issues?

Maybe I'm being too literal and there's more to it.?

Its a massively difficult balance because for years women have been fighting to be heard in life and sport and there is a danger of it going back in time by saying "we are not listening to your concerns". If women have issue with biological men using their spaces then I think that concern has a right to be heard, what the answer is in the broader sense I don't know because I also know Trans people and unfortunately know one through work who killed themselves recently so there is a much larger and nuanced discussion to be had around it all. Much more deeply than whats now become a really bitter and politically steroid up dialogue IMO

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

The new proposed law meant that you could self I'd, you told your gp you wanted to identify as a male/female and a GRC was issued.
Several institutions and women's associations raised concerns.
They were told "your concerns are not valid", direct quote from the Scottish first minister.
When examples of the concerns were highlighted the Scottish government rather than amendment the legislation doubled down with statements like"but just as they're transphobic you'll also find that they're deeply misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well ". Again direct quote from the FM.
So in effect the" whole hog" was telling your gp that you are now a woman, that was it, there was nothing else.
A man, any man could do this, even a convicted double rapist.

Despite the denial from the FM many people believe that it is this stubbornness that led to the collapse of the Snp vote and ultimately her falling on her sword.

So what does this look like in practice?
You have some fella role up at the doctors and says 'im a woman'. Does this get questioned/discussed? Can the man just demand a GRC be issued?
Edit: I'm reading you have to have lived in your gender for two years. Had a diagnosis of dysphoria or equivalent. Then gets sent of to some panel to be decided.

Now you have your GRC how do you weaponise that? I'm not sure how you can even hide behind it is you commited an offence.

I'm trying to understand a man that sits there and decides to take this path.

It just appears a weird route to take to abuse women......when you could just be an Andrew Tate lover and adopt his playbook. (something btw allowed to proliferate freely with little push back)

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

So what does this look like in practice?
You have some fella role up at the doctors and says 'im a woman'. Does this get questioned/discussed? Can the man just demand a GRC be issued?
Edit: I'm reading you have to have lived in your gender for two years. Had a diagnosis of dysphoria or equivalent. Then gets sent of to some panel to be decided.

Now you have your GRC how do you weaponise that? I'm not sure how you can even hide behind it is you commited an offence.

I'm trying to understand a man that sits there and decides to take this path.

It just appears a weird route to take to abuse women......when you could just be an Andrew Tate lover and adopt his playbook. (something btw allowed to proliferate freely with little push back)

This isn't really about the risk of abuse (which is very small). It's about women feeling safe when in a "woman only" space or being able to fairly compete in sport against other biological women only.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

This isn't really about the risk of abuse (which is very small). It's about women feeling safe when in a "woman only" space or being able to fairly compete in sport against other biological women only.

Yeah, I get that. I was really just continuing the thought thread I was having with Glasgow.
Womens safety concerns should always be considered (there is too much history of them being let down) but Trans people need that too. So where does this leave them?.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Yeah, I get that. I was really just continuing the thought thread I was having with Glasgow.
Womens safety concerns should always be considered (there is too much history of them being let down) but Trans people need that too. So where does this leave them?.

Doesn't leave them anywhere. Supreme court judges made it clear that although references to sex in equalities legislation referred to biological sex, the equalities act protected trans people from discrimination. I.e.:
A man, a woman and a trans woman apply for a job. All x3 have got to be considered equally and cannot be discriminated against on grounds of being a man, a woman or a trans woman. Employers will likely be expected to make reasonable adjustments to cater for trans, men and women. This may mean, for example having a gender neutral toilet ALONGSIDE a male only and female only toilet (this is one of the potential aspects of the judgement that has been commented on in terms of implication and impact on employers etc)

 

[glasgowspur]

So what does this look like in practice?
You have some fella role up at the doctors and says 'im a woman'. Does this get questioned/discussed? Can the man just demand a GRC be issued?
Edit: I'm reading you have to have lived in your gender for two years. Had a diagnosis of dysphoria or equivalent. Then gets sent of to some panel to be decided.

Now you have your GRC how do you weaponise that? I'm not sure how you can even hide behind it is you commited an offence.

I'm trying to understand a man that sits there and decides to take this path.

It just appears a weird route to take to abuse women......when you could just be an Andrew Tate lover and adopt his playbook. (something btw allowed to proliferate freely with little push back)

That's what it is but the Scottish government tried to change it, they wanted it different in Scotland than in England.
This case is the Scottish government against various womens groups. It's part of a wider group of legislation that that would have made it not only easier to get a GRC but should you question a persons eligibility for a GRC you could be prosecuted.
The legislation has been described as an abusers charter.
There were numerous attempts in the Scottish parliament to have ammendments made and they were rejected (not just by the Snp but labour, the greens and the lib dems).

Should Andrew tate enter a woman's safe space he can be arrested and prosecuted, give him a GRC and under the proposed law he can't be.

 

[glasgowspur]

Its a massively difficult balance because for years women have been fighting to be heard in life and sport and there is a danger of it going back in time by saying "we are not listening to your concerns". If women have issue with biological men using their spaces then I think that concern has a right to be heard, what the answer is in the broader sense I don't know because I also know Trans people and unfortunately know one through work who killed themselves recently so there is a much larger and nuanced discussion to be had around it all. Much more deeply than whats now become a really bitter and politically steroid up dialogue IMO

Bolded bit, this is so right, flags have been planted, battle lines drawn and positions taken and some people would rather see others suffer than move one inch towards a comprise.
There are solutions out there, but for some it's more important to be right than it is to find a solution.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Doesn't leave them anywhere. Supreme court judges made it clear that although references to sex in equalities legislation referred to biological sex, the equalities act protected trans people from discrimination. I.e.:
A man, a woman and a trans woman apply for a job. All x3 have got to be considered equally and cannot be discriminated against on grounds of being a man, a woman or a trans woman. Employers will likely be expected to make reasonable adjustments to cater for trans, men and women. This may mean, for example having a gender neutral toilet ALONGSIDE a male only and female only toilet (this is one of the potential aspects of the judgement that has been commented on in terms of implication and impact on employers etc)

Im guessing they are protected by discrimination laws just like other minority groups are BUT the practicalities are different, like the toilet situation...there are thousands of men and women's toilets across the country beyond the workplace...is a third option (fourth as most places have separate disabled facility) possible, everywhere.

And your other example....where do they fit into competitive sport?