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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

Rorschach said:
Oh I see. You mean real people are those who should know their place.
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No, real people are the ones who are at work instead of marching.
 
Robspur12 said:
The Police, as always, are in a no win situation. The organisers of the vigil were told last week that they could not hold it because of the precarious situation with covid. They said they would switch to a candle light vigil. Then you get the situation where people turn up in a large crowd.

I can only speak for myself, but when I was a police officer there was nothing I hated more than violence to women. Now I work in public health, I have seen the devastation covid has wrought on our communities. My colleagues regularly knock on doors of people notified by the test and trace system to find that the person they are looking for has died. It’s been incredibly harrowing. Children have only just returned to school, livelihoods are shut down.

No one wants to stop people’s right to protest especially on such an important, sensitive matter. But a vigil could be held in a few weeks when the situation is safer. These decisions are not as black and white as some people think. The politicians and the mayor piling into the Police are out of order.
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Sadly with the current government’s total lack of common sense it was always going to end this way.
The police were allowed to take all the flack for this. Patel could have eased the pressure by ‘having a word’ and advised no physical intervention. Sadly the CovId thing needed dialling down last night, not ideal but expedient in the current situation.
 
StephenH said:
Sadly with the current government’s total lack of common sense it was always going to end this way.
The police were allowed to take all the flack for this. Patel could have eased the pressure by ‘having a word’ and advised no physical intervention. Sadly the CovId thing needed dialling down last night, not ideal but expedient in the current situation.
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How do the police make them disperse without physical intervention? That's the entire point of the police.

If it could have been done by asking them nicely we could just have social workers instead of police.
 
scaramanga said:
How do the police make them disperse without physical intervention? That's the entire point of the police.

If it could have been done by asking them nicely we could just have social workers instead of police.
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Sums you up magnificently!
 
StephenH said:
Sadly with the current government’s total lack of common sense it was always going to end this way.
The police were allowed to take all the flack for this. Patel could have eased the pressure by ‘having a word’ and advised no physical intervention. Sadly the CovId thing needed dialling down last night, not ideal but expedient in the current situation.
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Agreed.
Idealistically, the vigil's wouldn't have taken place - we are in covid, it is an increased risk.
But life isn't idealistic; it isnt a textbook, it's nuanced.

I'm uncomfortable with the general outpoor re; the murder as it feels slightly incorrectly targeted. That said, there is clearly a strong feeling - so it's likely I'm missing something, at which point it's important to listen and respect the actions of the people that are scared.
The met should have been smart and cordoned off the area to restrict numbers.
They seem totally blind to the message that it was one of them that has murdered an innocent person.

On the plus side, both this and the BLM protests have shown that the restrictions in place from covid have no longevity, despite what Patel may want.

We are about to enter a few years where we see those rules remain and lots of violent protests and clashes as a distraction from what the Tories push through
 
monkeybarry said:
Agreed.
Idealistically, the vigil's wouldn't have taken place - we are in covid, it is an increased risk.
But life isn't idealistic; it isnt a textbook, it's nuanced.

I'm uncomfortable with the general outpoor re; the murder as it feels slightly incorrectly targeted. That said, there is clearly a strong feeling - so it's likely I'm missing something, at which point it's important to listen and respect the actions of the people that are scared.
The met should have been smart and cordoned off the area to restrict numbers.
They seem totally blind to the message that it was one of them that has murdered an innocent person.

On the plus side, both this and the BLM protests have shown that the restrictions in place from covid have no longevity, despite what Patel may want.

We are about to enter a few years where we see those rules remain and lots of violent protests and clashes as a distraction from what the Tories push through
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Sad that we don't have more intelligent people in power. Boris is incapable of showing the judgment required for situations like last night. Having the numpty Priti Patel as a home secretary just says it all for me, she is the ultimate blunt instrument.
 
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monkeybarry said:
Agreed.
Idealistically, the vigil's wouldn't have taken place - we are in covid, it is an increased risk.
But life isn't idealistic; it isnt a textbook, it's nuanced.

I'm uncomfortable with the general outpoor re; the murder as it feels slightly incorrectly targeted. That said, there is clearly a strong feeling - so it's likely I'm missing something, at which point it's important to listen and respect the actions of the people that are scared.
The met should have been smart and cordoned off the area to restrict numbers.
They seem totally blind to the message that it was one of them that has murdered an innocent person.

On the plus side, both this and the BLM protests have shown that the restrictions in place from covid have no longevity, despite what Patel may want.

We are about to enter a few years where we see those rules remain and lots of violent protests and clashes as a distraction from what the Tories push through
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Police shouldn’t make decisions that encourage breaking the law. Imagine how that would look the next time they had to disperse a large gathering. I know that the police and public health were in discussions with the organisers of the vigil. I am no fan of Boris but the candle outside of Downing Street was very symbolic and I thought struck the right tone. Doorstep vigils were what was agreed and I thought it was a sensible compromise. Instead people decided to break the law at a time we are trying to get the covid cases as low as possible. I would also point out, despite one rogue Officer, it is the police who probably protect more women day to day than any other agency or politician.
 
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Robspur12 said:
It’s not the Job of the police to judge the validity of a protest.
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Not the individual, of course not!
This is once again poor leadership at the very top. Patal should have spoken to Cressida long before it got to this mess. My only thought to that is I'm not sure it would have made much difference with the current government.
 
Robspur12 said:
It’s not the Job of the police to judge the validity of a protest.
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No, that shouldn't be their role. Unfortunately though the courts batted it back to the police, judging that the vigil wouldn't necessarily be illegal and leaving it up to the group to work with the police as to how it could safely take place. Clearly they couldn't come to any mutually agreeable way forward and it sounds as though there were threats of £10k fines for the organisers if it went ahead as an organised event.
I do appreciate the police were in a difficult position, but either agreeing to a socially distanced event with the marshalls being provided by the organisers (which the court ruling would have allowed them to do), or, when the non-official gathering happened anyway, taking a softer approach and not barging in and trying to drag away the speakers, would both have been better solutions. I don't think hindsight is needed to see that and whoever was in charge on the ground last night and thought taking that action would be a good thing needs to be hauled over the coals.

I do believe the term 'vigil' was a bit of a misnomer, as an element of protest was always part of the plan. Imo there were a lot of people there last night more interested in the protest than the vigil but that was always going to be the case from the moment the official event had to be called off. The police have to make judgement calls every day, I don't understand how they got this one so wrong.
 
Glenda's Legs said:
No, that shouldn't be their role. Unfortunately though the courts batted it back to the police, judging that the vigil wouldn't necessarily be illegal and leaving it up to the group to work with the police as to how it could safely take place. Clearly they couldn't come to any mutually agreeable way forward and it sounds as though there were threats of £10k fines for the organisers if it went ahead as an organised event.
I do appreciate the police were in a difficult position, but either agreeing to a socially distanced event with the marshalls being provided by the organisers (which the court ruling would have allowed them to do), or, when the non-official gathering happened anyway, taking a softer approach and not barging in and trying to drag away the speakers, would both have been better solutions. I don't think hindsight is needed to see that and whoever was in charge on the ground last night and thought taking that action would be a good thing needs to be hauled over the coals.

I do believe the term 'vigil' was a bit of a misnomer, as an element of protest was always part of the plan. Imo there were a lot of people there last night more interested in the protest than the vigil but that was always going to be the case from the moment the official event had to be called off. The police have to make judgement calls every day, I don't understand how they got this one so wrong.
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I saw the pictures of a large crowd. I wasn’t there on the night, but if the police ask them to disperse and they refuse and they then resist arrest I am not sure what more can be done. To blame the police completely absolves all the other parties that could have either put this off or have said this was lawful. The politicians are now falling over themselves to blame the Police who are in an awful position.
 
Robspur12 said:
Police shouldn’t make decisions that encourage breaking the law. Imagine how that would look the next time they had to disperse a large gathering. I know that the police and public health were in discussions with the organisers of the vigil. I am no fan of Boris but the candle outside of Downing Street was very symbolic and I thought struck the right tone. Doorstep vigils were what was agreed and I thought it was a sensible compromise. Instead people decided to break the law at a time we are trying to get the covid cases as low as possible. I would also point out, despite one rogue Officer, it is the police who probably protect more women day to day than any other agency or politician.
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Any suggestion that the Met is any kind of a threat to women is simply ridiculous.
 
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