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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

Yeah. Israel wanted peace for 3/4 a century. So much so they couldn't resist stepping outside of their internationally agreed areas to do so.

Murdering and raping native brown people along the way. Pushing a violation of international law further and further along each day.

But forget international law. They get a free pass because a holocaust happened thousands of miles away at a time barely anyone one presently alive experienced.

Is *struggle cuddle* an area to flex your argument? When Hamas have so recently gang raped through Israeli Kubbtz. Why is the colour of peoples skin relevant? I only see rapes reported and occurring from one side. Then what has international law have to do with the Holocaust? What a confused post.
 
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Yeah. Israel wanted peace for 3/4 a century. So much so they couldn't resist stepping outside of their internationally agreed areas to do so.

Murdering and raping native brown people along the way. Pushing a violation of international law further and further along each day.

But forget international law. They get a free pass because a holocaust happened thousands of miles away at a time barely anyone one presently alive experienced.

Your last paragraph is out of character for how you usually post. Hopefully you'll take a moment to rephrase it?

I have tried very hard to steer clear of saying much in this thread; the innocent dying and dead deserve more than my pontifications (I want an end to the innocent deaths full-stop), but I will say this. Whenever someone casually uses skin colour, it gets to me. There's been VIOLENT abuses of 'brown' and 'black' people by my nation of birth, your nation, and many MANY nations. Repeatedly. For decades. For centuries. But hey, let's keep it 'within most memories' for the sake of discussion. The first Afghan war. The first Iraq war. 2001. Afghanistan again after that. All with many many THOUSANDS of dead innocents. There's the Darfur genocide; 400,000 dead reports say. Most people know about Rwanda. Over one million Rohingya are in Bangladeshi camps hoping for some sort of life, with the Myanmar oppression having lasted decades and cost thousands of innocent lives. Has anyone ever given a fudge about the Kurds? Brown skin & black skin has LONG been on the receiving end in MANY places.

I most certainly do not claim to be remotely close to being an expert on any of this. I just wanted to point out that using terms and phrases (in these situations, IMO) needs to be approached with great care.

If history is 'beyond' the real-time memory of many today, it is all the more imperative that it be remembered and reinforced, from the unspeakably sadistic, deranged horrors of the holocaust to the awful regime destabilization of Iran in the '50s, which arguably led to many of the modern Middle Eastern issues we see, where outside proxies continue to play political and self-interested 'chess' with thousands and thousands of innocent lives throughout the region (and world).

I offer this in the spirit of discussion. I hope the world finds a way to stop the senseless killing, abuse, and subjugation of innocent people. I hope for a day the industrial military complex does not dominate geo-politics. I hope for a day the global pendulum swings away from populism...
 
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Your last paragraph is out of character for how you usually post. Hopefully you'll take a moment to rephrase it?

I have tried very hard to steer clear of saying much in this thread; the innocent dying and dead deserve more than my pontifications (I want an end to the innocent deaths full-stop), but I will say this. Whenever someone casually uses skin colour, it gets to me. There's been VIOLENT abuses of 'brown' and 'black' people by my nation of birth, your nation, and many MANY nations. Repeatedly. For decades. For centuries. But hey, let's keep it 'within most memories' for the sake of discussion. The first Afghan war. The first Iraq war. 2001. Afghanistan again after that. All with many many THOUSANDS of dead innocents. There's the Darfur genocide; 400,000 dead reports say. Most people know about Rwanda. Over one million Rohingya are in Bangladeshi camps hoping for some sort of life, with the Myanmar oppression having lasted decades and cost thousands of innocent lives. Has anyone ever given a fudge about the Kurds? Brown skin & black skin has LONG been on the receiving end in MANY places.

I most certainly do not claim to be remotely close to being an expert on any of this. I just wanted to point out that using terms and phrases (in these situations, IMO) needs to be approached with great care.

If history is 'beyond' the real-time memory of many today, it is all the more imperative that it be remembered and reinforced, from the unspeakably sadistic, deranged horrors of the holocaust to the awful regime destabilization of Iran in the '50s, which arguably led to many of the modern Middle Eastern issues we see, where outside proxies continue to play political and self-interested 'chess' with thousands and thousands of innocent lives throughout the region (and world).

I offer this in the spirit of discussion. I hope the world finds a way to stop the senseless killing, abuse, and subjugation of innocent people. I hope for a day the industrial military complex does not dominate geo-politics. I hope for a day the global pendulum swings away from populism...

Great post Steff, sadly the world is full of arseholes of many colours and race. I am not really a religous man but i hope those leaders and followers of all nations who bring famine and death to others burn in hell. Sadly i doubt they will.
 
Yeah that would be the position I usually take but a lot of people have decided that historical figures like Lincoln and Churchill aren’t good enough anymore.

We are all people of our time and should only be judged by that. My grandparents and parents would probably be seen as racist homophobes today but they were decent people who raised me to be open minded and tolerant to others.
 
We are all people of our time and should only be judged by that. My grandparents and parents would probably be seen as racist homophobes today but they were decent people who raised me to be open minded and tolerant to others.

My parents were/are racist homophobes.

What’s interesting is, that my grandparents were not, I think that was due to their experiences in WWII.
 
We are all people of our time and should only be judged by that. My grandparents and parents would probably be seen as racist homophobes today but they were decent people who raised me to be open minded and tolerant to others.

This is an interesting topic and whilst I don't disagree with your post to a certain extent, the view potentially neglects the fact that it took brave and forward thinking people to make changes to the system, often putting their own lives at risk on the process - It took great self sacrifice and bravery which should not be forgotten.

"It's okay that this person did or said x/y because everyone was racist / homophobic / whatever at the time" is hugely unfair to those people who actually had the humanity about them to realise that women should vote and having a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender shouldn't be a punishable offence and who put their minds towards enacting change. It's partially because of a lack of action from the masses that it's taken us this long to figure this stuff out, which realistically seems pretty fudging basic, it's a damning reflection on humanity imo. The daily mail phalanx who pretend to be oppressed at every chance forget that it really wasn't long ago that pubs had "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs" signs and that was just considered fair enough.

I listen to the "Empire" podcast and they have various historians on who to this day have to have security escorts when doing talks because they get threats due to them telling the truth that people don't want to hear about the impact the British empire had on the world (they do go in to other empires, just wanted to mention that before anyone gets worked up or feels personally called out;)). It's quite something that even in current times, professional historians discussing things that some would rather have swept under the carpet puts them at risk of violence.

Edit - Changed the wording as I wasn't intending to imply that KDD was ignorant of various struggles but more suggesting the possible pitfalls of oversimplifying something.
 
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This is an interesting topic and whilst I don't disagree with your post to a certain extent, the view potentially neglects the fact that it took brave and forward thinking people to make changes to the system, often putting their own lives at risk on the process - It took great self sacrifice and bravery which should not be forgotten.

"It's okay that this person did or said x/y because everyone was racist / homophobic / whatever at the time" is hugely unfair to those people who actually had the humanity about them to realise that women should vote and having a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender shouldn't be a punishable offence and who put their minds towards enacting change. It's partially because of a lack of action from the masses that it's taken us this long to figure this stuff out, which realistically seems pretty fudging basic, it's a damning reflection on humanity imo. The daily mail phalanx who pretend to be oppressed at every chance forget that it really wasn't long ago that pubs had "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs" signs and that was just considered fair enough.

I listen to the "Empire" podcast and they have various historians on who to this day have to have security escorts when doing talks because they get threats due to them telling the truth that people don't want to hear about the impact the British empire had on the world (they do go in to other empires, just wanted to mention that before anyone gets worked up or feels personally called out;)). It's quite something that even in current times, professional historians discussing things that some would rather have swept under the carpet puts them at risk of violence.

Edit - Changed the wording as I wasn't intending to imply that KDD was ignorant of various struggles.

I’m fine with having an open discussion about our sorry past, but people today shouldn’t be held responsible or made to be felt guilty because of things that happened decades/hundreds of years ago. I don’t take too much offence when people say Britain did some terrible things because most countries have at one point or another. The important thing is we acknowledge they happened and learn from them so they don’t happen again.
 
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I’m fine with having an open discussion about our sorry past, but people today shouldn’t be held responsible or made to be felt guilty because of things that happened decades/hundreds of years ago. I don’t take too much offence when people say Britain did some terrible things because most countries have at one point or another. The important thing is we acknowledge they happened and learn from them so they don’t happen again.

Absolutely agree on your last sentence. I'm not sure if anyone is being asked to feel guilty for the things people did in the past but awareness and acknowledgement are reasonable asks. And of course knowing that a large part of why the country is wealthy is due to things we consider today as morally reprehensible ie Colonization and the slave trade. On these things it's not like countries are sentient beings going around committing atrocities, no doubt there's plenty of Russians who have nothing to do with the invasion of Ukraine and would just like to live their life in peace and it was the same when we the English were galavanting around on various crusades.

For certain things acknowledgement makes other traditions somewhat difficult ie can the royal family acknowledge the various wrongdoings / massacres whilst also wheeling out various bits of "acquired" bling like the koh i nor diamond to adorn whichever person sits on the throne? I appreciate I'm going slightly odd topic and the royal family can be quite a divisive topic along which the plundered loot exhibition British museum.
 
I’m fine with having an open discussion about our sorry past, but people today shouldn’t be held responsible or made to be felt guilty because of things that happened decades/hundreds of years ago. I don’t take too much offence when people say Britain did some terrible things because most countries have at one point or another. The important thing is we acknowledge they happened and learn from them so they don’t happen again.
Yeh for me our responsibility comes to making sure its highlighted and educate./learn from them so they don't happen again, for the exact same reason I didn't think tearing down statues was productive, I think they should have served as markers of our mistakes and used as education.

I think there is alot to be said about living in the present and creating a more together community, sometimes dwelling too much on the past just enables the splinters then to continue today with the divide continuing. No doubt there is more to do today to make sure we are more inclusive, but there is also alot to celebrate about modern day inclusivity that get swept aside
 
Should know better, given the Irish history and bigotry they received via association, especially as a massive migrant nation themselves.


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