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Ross Barkley

Pirate55 said:
I agree - but drawing away to Bournemouth and West Brom were key results at the end of the season. 4 dropped points.

The point I was making was that Lamela is hardly the creative, game changing player as had been claimed. With Eriksen not there (or off form) we woefully lack creativity. The team generally were off form at the beginning of last season. However, Lamella is not the answer and the above statistics demonstrate that clearly.
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The above statistics prove absolutely nothing, other than that we didn't win enough games in that period. The statistic does not in any way prove the performance or lack of, of any individual player. Your logic is getting more stupid by the minute now!
 
Hearing some rumours coming out of Spurs that Arsenal have agreed terms with Ross Barkley. AFC offered better package. #AFC #THFC #Barkley

Whilst its only teletext, no-one would be surprised. Also heard that Utd are now sniffing about him. Still brick players attract these small clubs ;);)
 
Pirate55 said:
the interpretation of both "assists" and "key pass" that are subject to an individuals assessment rather than objective test.

Hypotheticals,


If a player like Walker say, gets put through down the right side completely un-marked and crosses to two unmarked team mates in the penalty box, is it a "key pass" and therefore "a chance created" if

a) he puts it across and empty goal and no-one gets a touch
b) he puts it directly in the path of both attackers, but neither get a touch and therefore no attempt at goal arises
c) he puts it directly into the path of one of the attackers who fails to control it but would otherwise be trying an attempt on goal
d) he puts it into the path of one of the attackers but he slices it backwards and its not clear whether he was trying for goal or to set up his other team-mate
e) he puts it behind both attackers who therefore fail to connect with what most would consider a clear-cut chance?

and finally , if the pass to Walker was a magnificent 50 yard defence splitting pass (which cut open the defence in the first place) to leave him with this golden opportunity, under the current definition, this would not be considered a "key pass", while I would suggest most people would think it was.
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The earth is round, but using your logic, that is probably not right, because it is based on some individuals interpretation and calculations, and subjective observations. I'd take a pause from writing for a while if I where you Pirate.
 
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Vega said:
Hearing some rumours coming out of Spurs that Arsenal have agreed terms with Ross Barkley. AFC offered better package. #AFC #THFC #Barkley

Whilst its only tacoter, no-one would be surprised. Also heard that Utd are now sniffing about him. Still brick players attract these small clubs ;);)
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It would be the most devastating moment since they 'beat' us to Chris Kiwomya
 
Vega said:
Hearing some rumours coming out of Spurs that Arsenal have agreed terms with Ross Barkley. AFC offered better package. #AFC #THFC #Barkley

Whilst its only tacoter, no-one would be surprised. Also heard that Utd are now sniffing about him. Still brick players attract these small clubs ;);)
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It's possible. Chamberlain is leaving so I guess Barkley could fill the gap
 
A Barkley link to Arsenal would strike me as being a fabrication from Everton/his agent in an attempt to make us get a move on.

My take on the situation is that we want the player and the player wants to come to us. I think we are playing the poker game at the moment in terms of Everton wanting the biggest fee possible and us wanting the smallest. We are prepared to play the waiting game as his fee can only reduce as time goes on, Everton will want to drum up alternative interest in an attempt to drive us up the urgency on our part and therefore the fee.

£25 million would be a great price for us to pay for him I think. £30 million would be acceptable. £20 million or less would be as big a bargain as we got last year with Wanyama.
 
Finney Is Back said:
A Barkley link to Arsenal would strike me as being a fabrication from Everton/his agent in an attempt to make us get a move on.

My take on the situation is that we want the player and the player wants to come to us. I think we are playing the poker game at the moment in terms of Everton wanting the biggest fee possible and us wanting the smallest. We are prepared to play the waiting game as his fee can only reduce as time goes on, Everton will want to drum up alternative interest in an attempt to drive us up the urgency on our part and therefore the fee.

£25 million would be a great price for us to pay for him I think. £30 million would be acceptable. £20 million or less would be as big a bargain as we got last year with Wanyama.
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With the level of risk he comes with (we know he can play but we don't know if he can be coached to think or work hard) I'd say £20M is a good price, £25M a big risk and anything past that Sissoko territory.
 
scaramanga said:
With the level of risk he comes with (we know he can play but we don't know if he can be coached to think or work hard) I'd say £20M is a good price, £25M a big risk and anything past that Sissoko territory.
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The obvious differences that I see between Barkley and Sissoko in terms of their playing characteristics are that Barkley has good touch with both feet and has demonstrated that he can both spot and play good passes, whereas Sissoko seems to me to be a player with a very poor touch who relies on powering through against out of position defences.

I think that Barkley also has a lot more confidence than Sissoko - and that is important IMO, especially when arriving for a sizable fee and joining a team with better players than you are used to playing with at your previous club.

IMO the key to getting the best out of Barkley, especially initially, is to ensure that he operates as high up the pitch as possible. I think he will be able to drop deeper into a Dembele type role in a few years time when he is more responsible in the way that he plays. Dele Ali is another player like this I think, he may always stay in that number 10 role as he is so good there, but he could also be moved back a little deeper as he plays more responsibly.
 
Finney Is Back said:
The obvious differences that I see between Barkley and Sissoko in terms of their playing characteristics are that Barkley has good touch with both feet and has demonstrated that he can both spot and play good passes, whereas Sissoko seems to me to be a player with a very poor touch who relies on powering through against out of position defences.

I think that Barkley also has a lot more confidence than Sissoko - and that is important IMO, especially when arriving for a sizable fee and joining a team with better players than you are used to playing with at your previous club.

IMO the key to getting the best out of Barkley, especially initially, is to ensure that he operates as high up the pitch as possible. I think he will be able to drop deeper into a Dembele type role in a few years time when he is more responsible in the way that he plays. Dele Ali is another player like this I think, he may always stay in that number 10 role as he is so good there, but he could also be moved back a little deeper as he plays more responsibly.
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I don't disagree with any of that but the big unknowns are can he be a coached to think, and can he be coached to give a fudge? If he can, £20-25M is a steal, if he can't we'll have tinkled it up the wall.

The following data are a year out of date but I don't have the up to date versions. The following image points it out quite clearly:

Ross-Barkley-2015-16.png

He's clearly got the ability, but no brain. I don't know if he's just too dumb to learn (Walcott) or in need of the right manager (Rose). Like I said, I guess it depends on your risk profile - I think more than £20-25M is too much risk given that various managers have yet to coach that side of his game. Given the way Poch clearly expects the team to play, the tackles/interceptions figure is concerning.

Another interesting bit of data from that season, the average progression towards goal from Barkley's possession in that season was -1.06m. In that same season, Deulofeu managed +3.65m and even Gareth Barry achieved +2.85m.
 
scaramanga said:
I don't disagree with any of that but the big unknowns are can he be a coached to think, and can he be coached to give a fudge? If he can, £20-25M is a steal, if he can't we'll have tinkled it up the wall.

The following data are a year out of date but I don't have the up to date versions. The following image points it out quite clearly:

Ross-Barkley-2015-16.png

He's clearly got the ability, but no brain. I don't know if he's just too dumb to learn (Walcott) or in need of the right manager (Rose). Like I said, I guess it depends on your risk profile - I think more than £20-25M is too much risk given that various managers have yet to coach that side of his game. Given the way Poch clearly expects the team to play, the tackles/interceptions figure is concerning.

Another interesting bit of data from that season, the average progression towards goal from Barkley's possession in that season was -1.06m. In that same season, Deulofeu managed +3.65m and even Gareth Barry achieved +2.85m.
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Interesting stuff.... How does that compare against Alli or Eriksen? Also was his previous season better or worse than last season in terms of output? (I genuinely don't know the answer to this).

You say he clearly has no brain, but I think it is a leap to deduce that from the stats above as you don't know all of the factors. It may be that his coaches have encouraged him to try to take his man on all of time for example?

0.22 assists per game seems pretty decent as does 1.5 key passes per game (I assume a key pass is a pass that led to a goalscoring opportunity?) Make an average of 1.5 key passes to Harry Kane every game and you are probably getting an assist every couple of games.

Regarding the last stat about progression towards goal - can that not be massively influenced by the position on the pitch? For example I would expect both holding midfielders and wingers to have better numbers here than central attacking players would?

I guess that one of the reasons that I would be happy to have Barkley at Spurs is due to the fact that I trust Pochettino's ability as a coach. If we were still managed by Redknapp (and don't get me wrong I think Redknapp was a brilliant manager for us) I would be more wary, as I think Redknapp would just get him in and tell him to express himself. I think part of the beauty of Pochettino's style of play is that it is reasonably formulaic and rigid. I don't think it is difficult for a player to take on Pochettino's ideas, which is why he can improve teams quite quickly. What a manager cannot coach of course is skill, vision, power or pace - qualities that Barkley has at least 3 of.
 
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Finney Is Back said:
Interesting stuff.... How does that compare against Alli or Eriksen? Also was his previous season better or worse than last season in terms of output? (I genuinely don't know the answer to this).

You say he clearly has no brain, but I think it is a leap to deduce that from the stats above as you don't know all of the factors. It may be that his coaches have encouraged him to try to take his man on all of time for example?

0.22 assists per game seems pretty decent as does 1.5 key passes per game (I assume a key pass is a pass that led to a goalscoring opportunity?) Make an average of 1.5 key passes to Harry Kane every game and you are probably getting an assist every couple of games.

Regarding the last stat about progression towards goal - can that not be massively influenced by the position on the pitch? For example I would expect both holding midfielders and wingers to have better numbers here than central attacking players would?

I guess that one of the reasons that I would be happy to have Barkley at Spurs is due to the fact that I trust Pochettino's ability as a coach. If we were still managed by Redknapp (and don't get me wrong I think Redknapp was a brilliant manager for us) I would be more wary, as I think Redknapp would just get him in and tell him to express himself. I think part of the beauty of Pochettino's style of play is that it is reasonably formulaic and rigid. I don't think it is difficult for a player to take on Pochettino's ideas, which is why he can improve teams quite quickly. What a manager cannot coach of course is skill, vision, power or pace - qualities that Barkley has at least 3 of.
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Not sure about Alli, I've yet to see a map for him. Eriksen, from memory, is absolutely phenomenal in terms of output - he's basically the reverse of that graph (except he also gets dispossessed a bit).

And this is all a year old as I don't collect or collate stats, I have no interest whatsoever in doing that.

Barkley's output there isn't terrible, but it's a poor return for what he's trying. That's suggested by the volume of dribbles, dispossessions and a net loss of yards. Couple that with a low assist/key pass rate (with a striker who can score as long as you don't want him to work) and it suggests a level of poor decision making. Factor in the very, very low tackle/interception figure and it starts to look like a lot of work for Poch. I think he has a decent output but a poor rate - probably because Everton tend to use him the way Spurs did Bale under AvB.

Progression is hugely affected by position, generally the further up the pitch you receive the ball, the lower your average gain is likely to be. Keepers average around 20m, strikers almost always a negative. I only have the figures for Everton but I don't think Barkley should have a negative figure (if he's making the right choices) and he should be better than Gareth "Safety" Barry.
 
scaramanga said:
Not sure about Alli, I've yet to see a map for him. Eriksen, from memory, is absolutely phenomenal in terms of output - he's basically the reverse of that graph (except he also gets dispossessed a bit).

And this is all a year old as I don't collect or collate stats, I have no interest whatsoever in doing that.

Barkley's output there isn't terrible, but it's a poor return for what he's trying. That's suggested by the volume of dribbles, dispossessions and a net loss of yards. Couple that with a low assist/key pass rate (with a striker who can score as long as you don't want him to work) and it suggests a level of poor decision making. Factor in the very, very low tackle/interception figure and it starts to look like a lot of work for Poch. I think he has a decent output but a poor rate - probably because Everton tend to use him the way Spurs did Bale under AvB.

Progression is hugely affected by position, generally the further up the pitch you receive the ball, the lower your average gain is likely to be. Keepers average around 20m, strikers almost always a negative. I only have the figures for Everton but I don't think Barkley should have a negative figure (if he's making the right choices) and he should be better than Gareth "Safety" Barry.
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Not sure about your very last comment there. Barry plays very deep in holiday midfield so is always likely to be moving the ball forwards. Barkley (I think) was playing a number 10 so would've often been receiving the ball in advanced positoins with his back to goal.
 
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