Finney Is Back
Jimmy Cantrell
But one of the main reasons people on here think Richi should’ve got a squad number is his asset value?
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Richarlison
- Thread starter Denmark Spur
- Start date
thfcsteff
Fanny Walden
He is a decent human being who scored 11 Premier League goals for us last season. Much like when Ange won a trophy and some chose to dismiss it against an obviously sacrificed league vs injuries, some continue to hammer the point that Richarlison is neither a Haaland or Alvarez. Thanks for that, we'd never have known.
Again, he was 11 goals in 32 (not all starts) last season, he was 11 goals in (not all starts) 28 apps 23/24. We currently don't have anything like that. This is not a debate about whether that is good enough or not BTW, they're just facts.
We fudged this. And it is what it is. I'm over it and we move on, in fact I wish his namje would stop coming up in context to the pitch in a Spurs shirt because that is done and over. What can be said is that we need a striker, we will need better than him, right now we have no-one better than him for goals under our registration, and we chose to let it blow out all the way.
Final note on his behaviour. It is too easily forgotten how honest he has been about depression and issues in the past. I would wager he is a man who operates under the constant stuggle of keeping his emotions in balance. I therefore take none of his social media stuff as a planned slight whatsoever, and wish the club had looked to handle this whole thing with a little more privacy and grace. Letting it play out in public is pathetic. And regardless of RDZ's role or marginal role in the decision, he should NOT have to keep dealing with the question.
We are still learning as a club...
Again, he was 11 goals in 32 (not all starts) last season, he was 11 goals in (not all starts) 28 apps 23/24. We currently don't have anything like that. This is not a debate about whether that is good enough or not BTW, they're just facts.
We fudged this. And it is what it is. I'm over it and we move on, in fact I wish his namje would stop coming up in context to the pitch in a Spurs shirt because that is done and over. What can be said is that we need a striker, we will need better than him, right now we have no-one better than him for goals under our registration, and we chose to let it blow out all the way.
Final note on his behaviour. It is too easily forgotten how honest he has been about depression and issues in the past. I would wager he is a man who operates under the constant stuggle of keeping his emotions in balance. I therefore take none of his social media stuff as a planned slight whatsoever, and wish the club had looked to handle this whole thing with a little more privacy and grace. Letting it play out in public is pathetic. And regardless of RDZ's role or marginal role in the decision, he should NOT have to keep dealing with the question.
We are still learning as a club...
thfcsteff
Fanny Walden
(sigh)
Let me explain. We all, as supporters of the club, want what's in our club's best interests. This is NOT a question of 'loyalty' in that binary sense, it's a question of showing class and composure in how we deal with difficult situations. This one has apparently been known to the club all summer. Are we to believe there was no way that all potential scenarios were mapped out so as to avoid such a stupid public charade? We know that Richy is an emotional person, we also must know how his agent works. I am incredulous at the thought that our DoF/board had not conceived every potential issue, including any 'loyalty payments' or whatever might've been necessary to make certain moves happen. AND at the end of it all, the club made a decision that re-integrating a goalscorer in dispute into the squad until January was not something they wanted to do. The club made the choice. I back the club. I don't agree with what they did as it is (IMO) performative versus the short-term need to help us get goals and points to keep the wolves from the door. I also feel sorry for Richy here. But there we are.
It is possible for two things to exist at the same time.
demotw
Steven Caulker
The world is about to end, as I am actually agreeing with something gutterboy said
Ultimately the club and the manager has a platform to say what they want, paint a player in a certain light. The only method a player has of getting their version out there is through social media these days. For example, lets say RDZ turned round and said Richy refused to play for the club so thats why he is dropped, is Richy just supposed to accept that or if its not valid should he sit quiet and ignore it, while fans turn on him as the reason for x,y,z.
Something has clearly broken down with the relationship, I dont doubt RDZ that Richy has said he wont renew his contract and therefore wants to leave, I am guessing when is contract ends is his ideal situation. The club dont like this so attempted to sell him and/or trigger an extension as they want money for him, like £35m. Richy then comes out and says no-one will make the decisions for him and he is dropped. Despite saying he constantly asked to leave, that doesnt quite match up with how Richy is behaving if I am honest so i dont blame the lad. I think both the club and the player hold some responsibility here, but its the club who have shot themselves in the foot by not registering him and keeping him as an option for this season.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Nick Barmby
You acknowledge yourself he is an emotional person…I mean this with the most sensitivity possible but I wonder how much leeway you can extend an emotional person before they have to take some responsibility for their actions?
Unless you know something that isn’t public, we don’t know whether it was loyalty payments or anything else. It still doesn’t make sense to be that we would fail to pay loyalty payments to make the move to Everton happen, but yet willingly agree a deal for far less of a fee to Vasco.
As far as I can see, Richy said he wanted to leave and had opportunities to make at least 3 moves happen, and decided that none of them worked. I’m sure Brennan maybe wanted a better situation for himself than ending up at Palace after scoring 18 goals for us (and the winner at City in the same season we sell him) but he took the move that was on offer. As far as I can see, the club allowed him to talk to 3 different clubs, after being told that he wouldn’t extend his contract and that he wanted to leave. I’m not sure what else they could have done to help him move, and so this is where I ask how much is his responsibility?
I get that the answer will be that we didn’t need to not register him. But I do happen to believe it is not performative and will have benefits to us longer term. Every other player actively wants to be here and it committed to making it work, which is especially important when you’re asking players to buy into a complicated system. Any dissenting voices or delay in getting to that is more harmful than 11 goals lost from an entirely different context in my view. If the system starts working, the goals will come from multiple sources. And again I’m surprised that RDZ actually did even want to keep him in the first place, given how dreadful I think Richy is when he has to be more than a pure finisher.
thfcsteff
Fanny Walden
Mate, being an emotional person does not necessarily mean fragile, so no worries
I think it is probably (specifically in his case)about understanding his idiosynchrasies and being prepared/a step ahead for any of them. Whether that's on us or not is likely another topic of discussion, the fact remains as our asset, we should have a bespoke plan to deal with him (and all of them in fairness).BTW, all people need to take responsibility for their actions. He's made a couple of Richy-esque social media posts. Big whoop IMO.
It doesn't make sense does it? Why did we not make the deal to Everton work, knowing the player was happy to go there. I will make the assumption that for it to have got that far, there is no way Everton did not offer wages he was OK with? So why? As for the lesser fee to Vasco, well, let's face it, something went wrong over the Everton thing and it was obviously an attempt to financially retrieve the situation.
Nobody knows and your assumption is no more accurate or inaccurate than mine or any others.
I am not sure any comparisons can be made. Having said that, both Johnson and our DoF told him he was unwanted. I get the impression there was not the same level of clarity with Richy at all. Perhaps the club should've been stronger in the summer and been as decisive, but as you'll see below, I think RDZ would've liked to have had Richy around until we got a replacement in the squad (and I believe the club thought either Gakpo or Ndiaye were nailed on - they got it wrong, which happens...)
Indeed. A worthy question. We don't know. What we do know is that rather than wring the last drops of value from a registered asset we are paying approximately 100k a week to, we -as a club- made a decision to not include him in our Prem squad. That being the case, it was surely in our interests to do everything possible to get him off our books and out of the club (even if it meant a cheaper sale to Vasco). We decided that it was better to mothball him than let that happen.
I personally believe the club have made a stand against anyone who speaks out of turn (i.e. Romero last year) and as such, I don't think this is all De Zerbi's decision. So I believe it is absolutely performative in the sense of showing everyone else how to conduct themselves in this new era.
I agree with all of that in theory. And in practice - if we were. Where it falls apart with Richarlison is that he is still training with the squad. So it doesn't match up to me.
Goals will have to come from multiple sources. We are creating chances and thus far they have not. Like you (and many I trust) I have great belief that RDZ is getting us to a higher ground and greater standard and style of play. Whether that includes Richy is not my concern as I trust what he wants to do long-term. Short-term? Between now and January? I fail to see the difference in having him registered for the PL squad and available versus not registered for the PL and still training with us. IF it is a club decision (including but not limited to De Zerbi) to not have him in the PL squad for reasons mentioned, great, send the message, but not half-ar sed.
Maybe that training situation has changed. It needs to have, otherwise it makes no sense to me.
I think the club have tried to leave him hanging as the only issue here, when it takes two to tango. Say what you like, but it is part of the DoF's job to see situations like this coming and manage them. They did well with others this summer, not so well here.
Two dancers fudging up the ball here, and IMO, the main lead foot in this situation are the club.
We'll all survive I'm sure
MartyFunkhouser
Vivian Woodward
Its actually become a hugely debated topic on why he turned Everton down with clubs having a spat.
Deals break down all the time after clubs agree, even through wages, it was even reported thay Rodri and his team wanted more from Real despite the deal being agreed, so it happens, I would say it happens alot more than someone trying to get their club to cancel their contract which rarely happens ever.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Nick Barmby
Mate, being an emotional person does not necessarily mean fragile, so no worries
BTW, all people need to take responsibility for their actions. He's made a couple of Richy-esque social media posts. Big whoop IMO.
It doesn't make sense does it? Why did we not make the deal to Everton work, knowing the player was happy to go there. I will make the assumption that for it to have got that far, there is no way Everton did not offer wages he was OK with? So why? As for the lesser fee to Vasco, well, let's face it, something went wrong over the Everton thing and it was obviously an attempt to financially retrieve the situation.
Nobody knows and your assumption is no more accurate or inaccurate than mine or any others.
I am not sure any comparisons can be made. Having said that, both Johnson and our DoF told him he was unwanted. I get the impression there was not the same level of clarity with Richy at all. Perhaps the club should've been stronger in the summer and been as decisive, but as you'll see below, I think RDZ would've liked to have had Richy around until we got a replacement in the squad (and I believe the club thought either Gakpo or Ndiaye were nailed on - they got it wrong, which happens...)
Indeed. A worthy question. We don't know. What we do know is that rather than wring the last drops of value from a registered asset we are paying approximately 100k a week to, we -as a club- made a decision to not include him in our Prem squad. That being the case, it was surely in our interests to do everything possible to get him off our books and out of the club (even if it meant a cheaper sale to Vasco). We decided that it was better to mothball him than let that happen.
I personally believe the club have made a stand against anyone who speaks out of turn (i.e. Romero last year) and as such, I don't think this is all De Zerbi's decision. So I believe it is absolutely performative in the sense of showing everyone else how to conduct themselves in this new era.
I agree with all of that in theory. And in practice - if we were. Where it falls apart with Richarlison is that he is still training with the squad. So it doesn't match up to me.
Goals will have to come from multiple sources. We are creating chances and thus far they have not. Like you (and many I trust) I have great belief that RDZ is getting us to a higher ground and greater standard and style of play. Whether that includes Richy is not my concern as I trust what he wants to do long-term. Short-term? Between now and January? I fail to see the difference in having him registered for the PL squad and available versus not registered for the PL and still training with us. IF it is a club decision (including but not limited to De Zerbi) to not have him in the PL squad for reasons mentioned, great, send the message, but not half-ar sed.
Maybe that training situation has changed. It needs to have, otherwise it makes no sense to me.
I think the club have tried to leave him hanging as the only issue here, when it takes two to tango. Say what you like, but it is part of the DoF's job to see situations like this coming and manage them. They did well with others this summer, not so well here.
Two dancers fudging up the ball here, and IMO, the main lead foot in this situation are the club.
We'll all survive I'm sure
I don’t disagree with much of what you have said there. I too would rather he wasn’t training with us, and that there was some easier way out of the situation for him even now. I think that maybe the reason he is still supposedly training with the first team is to legally protect the club against the new law that you cannot banish established players to the u21s. I think I am remembering my read into this law correctly, but right now it feels to me like the club can say ‘we accepted offers, multiple offers from different clubs and he didn’t move, but he’s still training with us our first team so we’re not ruining his career. And it’s partly his decision making that has led him to this situation’. Where as if we had banished him, he would be more likely able to cancel his contract,
As I say, I don’t disagree with you much on the idea that this isn’t ideal for both sides. Where I fall though is just in comparing it to what has came before. I think the last few years have been a mess, because there has been an absence of culture, a wild swing in playing styles and coaching styles, and an allowance of players to hang around longer than they are really motivated to be at Spurs. In fact not just an allowance, but actively seemingly thinking that players as individuals have a certain level of quality, and that by keeping them, we can still get the best out of them, I think everything we have seen since 2019 shows that not to be true. We chucked out the culture, and we held on to players too long. Eriksen was here way longer than he needed to be. Rose basically spent his last season under contract not playing. We got effectively nothing for Dele.
Even though it’s a less than ideal situation for both sides, I am honestly just happy that we seem to be putting a stake in the ground again around culture, and footballing cohesion. If it takes this situation with Richy to do it, I’m ok with it. I like that we have owners that seem to be saying ‘his value as an individual may fall, but the benefit to the increased likelihood of the cohesion of the whole means this is worth doing’. I am so glad that we seemingly have that mindset. Players need to know that they need to be all in to want to be here. They need to know that we are going to facilitate moves for them if they don’t want to be here. And I think as you say in the case of Brennan they need to know that if they refuse offers from elsewhere that they will not be playing with us. This is the reason I believe Brennan accepted a move, and again I do wonder too whether this was actually communicated to Richy in the same way. I assume it was. But Richy has the view that he is willing to see out his contract, and would play hard as long as he had one with us. I am just personally of the opinion that I am delighted we are no longer a club where players will be happy to play out their contracts, but actually actively want to be here, and fully commit. It’s been too long.
(Side note, but I think Man United are in a similar boat of trying to establish a culture again. They are in a different situation to us because they’ve been a place where for too long they’ll pay big wages, but I think they’ve recognised they’ve attracted mercenaries rather than people that are fully bought into the club on the whole, and that is why they had a relatively calm summer in the transfer market. They actually needed to get away from being a place where people would go for the money, and be a place that people wanted to be more intrinsically because of who they are a club. We on the other hand have never paid the wages, and now we are doing that. But I think because of that, it’s very important that we don’t become a place for mercenaries too, and that is why big culture-setting decisions like this Richy situation are actually important to see through in my view. And that is why I’m happy we’re doing it.)
thfcsteff
Fanny Walden
I have no issue with the culture thing at all, and agree it is important (I've said as much many times over the years too).
I don't see the Richy thing as a great 'club culture' reset if I am honest. I see it as huge miscalculation. Let's face it, we managed to get it done with Danso and Romero (to name two) and in Romero's case for a significantly reduced fee just to move him on. That we did not manage to do that with Richy seems weird.
I still think the club got this one wrong and did not do the diligent work properly to avoid this mess from happening.
Let's hope they don't get caught like this again.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Nick Barmby
Just depends how you see it I guess. I see a guy willingly going to socials to talk about not being pushed around anymore, not understanding why he isn’t selected, and I wonder why Danso and Romero, and Spence, and Brennan, and Vuskovic, and Vicario, how did they all find moves out of the club but Richy couldn’t? Did the club sufficiently plan all of these moves and willingly sell below market rate on most of these players just to be sure they would move them out…and yet not do the same things for Richy? What makes Richy so different? To me, it’s that he’s the one complaining on social media. I think he’s miscalculated, and I think he was banking on the club still operating the way they had done in years past. That they would never let the value of an asset drop. We’re doing it, we’ll be fine, and he’s not playing football for 4 months.
I just struggle with the idea there is some accommodation we could have made to this particular personality that would have made him feel better about moving. He clearly wanted to take a stand, to prove a point, and didn’t bank on not being registered. And I think he is losing out more than we are in this trade.
glasgowspur
Jimmy Cantrell
I definitely think the initial problem was with Everton, probably that they were not willing to pay him what he felt was the going rate.
Our reaction to that has maybe added fuel to the fire.
Ultimately it's a sad end to his time here.
MartyFunkhouser
Vivian Woodward
Yeh absolutely, at the end of the day you are right, its a sad end. Despite him not being great he was never a bad egg and had some good games with us.
Finney Is Back
Jimmy Cantrell
Didn’t Rodri sign for Real Madrid?
Finney Is Back
Jimmy Cantrell
Doesn’t the fact we have accepted quite low frees for other players this summer (even ones with a higher net book value) suggest to you that it is more likely to be the player himself that scuppered a move? I mean why is Richi the only player that wanted out and that we didn’t particularly want to keep still around? Surely logic tells you something there?
MartyFunkhouser
Vivian Woodward
Yep after talking for a long time with Madrid and haggling over wages
Muttley
Vedran Corluka
Is the reason why he needed and still needs to go. He had 4 seasons with us and the good games were few and far between.