a spur from swansea
Naybet
well if I was.... the lady i sit next to in work may complain to HR*were you having a toss when you typed this?
*(Human Resource not Harry Redknapp,lol)
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Redknapp
- Thread starter Grays_1890
- Start date
*(Human Resource not Harry Redknapp,lol)
mick cooper
Neil Sullivan
I'm referring to those who think that whatever replacement comes in after him would be a step down - a logic which I've attempted to counter-act with reason / facts/ real-life examples. etc. in around 20 posts already. Clearly we're all just missing each other rendering this whole debate pointless from here on.
Sounds completely plausible
Since this thread has turned back into a debate (well done all of us
) I feel we have gotten closer to some understanding of both sides. There's not really two opposing sides here though, just a whole lot of shades of grey. I'm not really arguing against your points, but those that are either black or white (not in a racist way) on this issue are in a very small minority and not really that receptive to reason.Since this thread has turned back into a debate (well done all of us
I have come to accept this - simply wanted to delve deeper into their perceived reasoning. i.e. for every claim one needs to (or should) offer some level of justification. Clearly this is one massive misunderstanding through written text
mick cooper
Neil Sullivan
Since this thread has turned back into a debate (well done all of us
For me the fundamental issue is - if the club gets rid of HR, then we need to move for a manager who we are likely to get a better return out of.
This means paying out for the better managers, and Capello would make the most sense to me, of the ones out there.
If we take on a Rodgers, Lambert - I see Coyle has lost his lustre, type of manager, it seems that we are simply dumping a guy who has proved that he can get us at the right end of the table, to take a risk on someone we know nothing about.
I still see no logical reason to get rid of HR - if we keep the players and improve the squad with some of the proposed players we have heard bandied around, then I see no reason why we can't equal or better this seasons finish, and put in a serious tilt at a cup.
The only reasons I can see is that we either have someone of the highest calibre to replace (very unlikely) or something has gone seriously wrong behind the scenes. Change for the sake of change won't get us anywhere.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Ok, if we accept that this isn't about Harry getting sacked to bring a new man in, let's say hypothetically it's about which new man comes in next year because Harry's contract isn't renewed, so in effect, nothing to do with Harry at all.
I'd still like to debate who would drop down to allow us to over-take them on a consistent basis, to get into the 1st-4th bracket? I see it like this:
Emirates Marketing Project - should be between 1st-2nd each year.
Man United - could be between 1st and 3rd each year.
Chelsea - should be between 1st and 3rd each year.
Spurs - should be between 3rd and 6th.
Arsenal - should be between 3rd and 6th.
Liverpool - should be between 4th and 7th.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine - should be between 4th and 7th.
This is all based on the anticipated strengthening each club will do this summer. For example Chelsea have the money to strengthen and surely won't have a season like this one in the league again for a long time. (Although dallying round without a manager, waiting for Pep could make it happen if they just expect top 4 again this coming season!). I think Emirates Marketing Project should never be below 2nd with their resources, United could drop to 3rd if Chelsea have a good year. Arsenal could drop to 6th in a bad year but losing RVP I don't think they'll ever get beyond 2 of City/United/Chelsea year on year. Liverpool with their new management structure could push for top 4 again, but I don't think they'll have enough depth or quality to suddenly over-take 5 of the clubs above them. And Saudi Sportswashing Machine, after this year I think they will always be top 7 but I don't think Chelsea will be so sloppy as to let them have a shot at 3rd again.
So who there drops out? And which manager helps us achieve it and how does he do it? I can see an argument for Arsenal dropping out if they lose RVP, but they have recently shown more of a willingness to buy more proven players as the need to stay in the top 4 becomes greater, so I'm not sure they won't replace him with someone good. Plus if they bring in M'Villa, get Wheelchair back, and Oxlade continues to improve, they will look strong. They will surely start to take advantage of their commercial income soon once the stadium gets closer to being paid off and start spending big again.
I think we will be in a fight with Arsenal to get above them, and that's our realistic goal. But beyond that, over a number of years, I don't see what any manager could do, because as much as we strenghthen, and as close as we get to the top 3 clubs, they can just as easily offer some new player 200k a week to join them. FFP may help it, and over a number of years, it may allow us to get close. But it would rely on us building a world class team and keeping hold of them all when higher wages are on offer elsewhere. A great goalkeeper, Vertonghen, keeping hold of Modric, and more depth on the wings and upfront and we could be there, neck and neck with Arsenal. But beyond that? As soon as we get close to the other 3, they will realise it, spend ?ú75M in a transfer window and we'll be pulled back again. Maybe there will come a point where they simply can't buy every player going, and we've improved enough quality wise and depth wise that we have a squad capable of challenging, but I see that taking at least 4-5 years. As we are now, I don't see any manager doing it.
I'd still like to debate who would drop down to allow us to over-take them on a consistent basis, to get into the 1st-4th bracket? I see it like this:
Emirates Marketing Project - should be between 1st-2nd each year.
Man United - could be between 1st and 3rd each year.
Chelsea - should be between 1st and 3rd each year.
Spurs - should be between 3rd and 6th.
Arsenal - should be between 3rd and 6th.
Liverpool - should be between 4th and 7th.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine - should be between 4th and 7th.
This is all based on the anticipated strengthening each club will do this summer. For example Chelsea have the money to strengthen and surely won't have a season like this one in the league again for a long time. (Although dallying round without a manager, waiting for Pep could make it happen if they just expect top 4 again this coming season!). I think Emirates Marketing Project should never be below 2nd with their resources, United could drop to 3rd if Chelsea have a good year. Arsenal could drop to 6th in a bad year but losing RVP I don't think they'll ever get beyond 2 of City/United/Chelsea year on year. Liverpool with their new management structure could push for top 4 again, but I don't think they'll have enough depth or quality to suddenly over-take 5 of the clubs above them. And Saudi Sportswashing Machine, after this year I think they will always be top 7 but I don't think Chelsea will be so sloppy as to let them have a shot at 3rd again.
So who there drops out? And which manager helps us achieve it and how does he do it? I can see an argument for Arsenal dropping out if they lose RVP, but they have recently shown more of a willingness to buy more proven players as the need to stay in the top 4 becomes greater, so I'm not sure they won't replace him with someone good. Plus if they bring in M'Villa, get Wheelchair back, and Oxlade continues to improve, they will look strong. They will surely start to take advantage of their commercial income soon once the stadium gets closer to being paid off and start spending big again.
I think we will be in a fight with Arsenal to get above them, and that's our realistic goal. But beyond that, over a number of years, I don't see what any manager could do, because as much as we strenghthen, and as close as we get to the top 3 clubs, they can just as easily offer some new player 200k a week to join them. FFP may help it, and over a number of years, it may allow us to get close. But it would rely on us building a world class team and keeping hold of them all when higher wages are on offer elsewhere. A great goalkeeper, Vertonghen, keeping hold of Modric, and more depth on the wings and upfront and we could be there, neck and neck with Arsenal. But beyond that? As soon as we get close to the other 3, they will realise it, spend ?ú75M in a transfer window and we'll be pulled back again. Maybe there will come a point where they simply can't buy every player going, and we've improved enough quality wise and depth wise that we have a squad capable of challenging, but I see that taking at least 4-5 years. As we are now, I don't see any manager doing it.
Arcspace, I think you are mistaking that view from
- The next manager COULD be a step down
- Based on the fact that Harry has the best Spurs record in at least two decades, it's actually likely.
- The next manager at best, would only be 1 league spot up
- The names that are likely to be in the hat (on paper) would be no more than a sideways move
For me it's just risk/reward, and the reward needs to be clear enough and likely enough to justify the risk.
Just my opinion.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Fair enough, I can't dance with that at all actually. Everton could definitely get close to Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Liverpool could easily not take to this new structure, and even then to fully implement it and see the benefits may take a few years for them in their own right.
Apologies.
Still, as Raziel alluded to, I don't think there are many people who have explicitly been saying that there is no-one better out there, or that any successor will inevitably leave us in mid-table mediocrity.
BoL stated numerous times already he/she believes there's no one better out there at the moment.
Spursfan1957/MK feels the same way by and large
Raziel has alluded to this many a times - 'could' be a step down reads more like 95% 'could' be a step down. Quoted many of his posts today - look back and see for yourself.
In addition - there a numerous other supporters of this view - names escape me however
parklane1
Tony Galvin
There seems to be a lot of sense in that, i do not think there is anyone who does not believe Redknapp has done a good job. It seems to me there are two basic points behind the debate.
(1) there are those who think that Redknapp may have got us as far as he can and believe a new manager is needed to take us the rest of the way.
(2) the other point is that there are those who believe he can take us further and should be allowed to try and do so.
Both sides of the debate have made good points and no one can say one has more basis then the other, what has been questioned is those who say that the managers that have been mentioned ( Rogers, Lambert etc) are a step down and a big risk, i fai lto see how they would be anymore of a risk then we took when we employed Redknapp.
Redknapp was brought in to save us from relegation, there was very little risk involved in that. Redknapp did that with great success and went on to get 4th. The next man will be expected to achieve top 4 right from the start (that would be Levy's wish, not necessarily the fans). There is a slight difference in the circumstances.
Good summarising post.
But at the risk of going round in circles again, the level of risk is different because our situations are different. When we took Redknapp we had little to lose - we were already bottom after finishing 11th the season before. Now we have a lot to lose.
ArcspacE - fair enough. Ultimately no-one knows for sure whether a new manager would do better or worse.
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
Exactly and Levy isn't gonna take any sort of risk when we're cruising along nicely in 4th/5th place with the stadium on the horizon, ffp coming in and two of our rivals in the midst of serious rebuilding.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
I am aware of that, but in all honesty i never really thought we would go down. However depending which way you want to look at it we have a far better team now( seeing as we were bottom of the table) so a new manager would have better to work with, so the risk would be less.
Exactly how good it is rather subjective though. Some think we're puching slightly above our weight, others think we should be doing better. To bring in someone else to maintain our current performance level is a risk, exactly how risky depends on how you see things. Going from Jol to Ramos was a calculated risk that didn't pay off. Levy won't do that again unless he feels the chance of success is a lot higher.