Premier League Club Accounts

[Rorschach]

A closed shop breakaway league would be a novelty at first, but I believe it would become boring and mostly irrelevant to the viewing public over time. How many times can you watch the same teams playing each other, even if you were a fan of those teams? The CL has already is a closed shop of sorts. Entry is effectively determined by money and bar the odd match it is a bit boring to the neutral spectator. A breakaway would be the even more of the same .

The CL does just about enough to keep people watching but repeated participation by the same clubs has had a detrimental effect on the top leagues in terms of the prize money skewing the competition even further. I say let the sky teams **** off and lets see how they get on. I won't shed a tear and there are plenty more teams in the football league to take their place.

 

[Neymar]

sports leagues around the world do very well without promotion/relegation. mls, nba, nfl etc. to the neutral spectator, this league is the stuff of dreams. neutral fans watch sports to see the athletes, not the clubs. this breakaway league will have all the best players, so any neutral fan will choose to watch this. look at the english championship for example. many say that this is more exciting (in terms of competition) than the premier league, because there are probably only 2/3 teams who can realistically win the epl. however, the neutral chinese fan doesnt watch bolton vs reading does he? he wants to watch rooney against lampard.


winning the premier league is all about money. same with winning la liga. come think of it, pretty much winning any football league in the world is about being the richest team. yet it still captures the attention of fans around the world, most of whom are following one of these "rich" teams. and lets not kid ourselves. as spurs fans (me included), at the start of every season theres something in our heart that says it might just be our year. i suspect this sense of delusion exists in many fans following premier league football. fans will never stop dreaming. this is what keeps us following our teams.

 

[Neymar]

EU competition laws would be a huge problem for any closed shop Super League. They would be vulnerable to law suits from all excluded clubs who would, quite rightly, argue that such a move would effectively kill them off.

I dont know EU law well enough to comment seriously on this, but it strikes me as being not a realistic claim.

But in the event that it did happen, there would be no benefit to the remaining clubs in continuing to allow Super League clubs to play in their domestic leagues. No one would be interested in watching games - in the stadium or on TV - involving those clubs' reserve teams.

I think there would be because i suspect the breakaway clubs will still be some of the strongest teams in the domestic leagues. and other teams will view games against these breakaway teams as "cup finals", and players will think of these games as an opportunity to advertise themselves.

 

[jimmyb]

I dont know EU law well enough to comment seriously on this, but it strikes me as being not a realistic claim.

It's very realistic.

I think there would be because i suspect the breakaway clubs will still be some of the strongest teams in the domestic leagues. and other teams will view games against these breakaway teams as "cup finals", and players will think of these games as an opportunity to advertise themselves.

How many people watch Barcelona B or Bayern Munich B? How much TV pull do those teams have?

You have your answer there.

If the fans of Super League teams already pay big money to watch (live and on TV) their teams compete in a European Super League, there will be little incentive for them to pay good money to watch their B teams compete in a far inferior competition.

If anything, in much the same way that having CL dropouts in the latter stages of the Europa League fundamentally devalues and compromises the integrity of that competition, so having Super League B teams competing in domestic leagues would actually make those competitions less attractive. Not more so.

Besides which, I suspect that fans of other clubs, for their part, will have little interest in watching their clubs compete against another club's B team - even if those B teams are better than their clubs' first teams. My guess is that they will deliver an almighty **** off to those clubs that abandoned them. Rightly so.

 

[Neymar]

It's very realistic.

In the usa, does the anti-competition law you are refering to not exist?

How many people watch Barcelona B or Bayern Munich B? How much TV pull do those teams have?

You have your answer there.

How many fans turn up to watch arsenal in the carling cup? or our own team in the europa league vs some cypriot team?

If the fans of Super League teams already pay big money to watch (live and on TV) their teams compete in a European Super League, there will be little incentive for them to pay good money to watch their B teams compete in a far inferior competition.

fans pay big money to watch champions league teams in the champions league and epl, yet they still come to watch them in the fa cup and carling cup, which are significantly inferior competitions

If anything, in much the same way that having CL dropouts in the latter stages of the Europa League fundamentally devalues and compromises the integrity of that competition, so having Super League B teams competing in domestic leagues would actually make those competitions less attractive. Not more so.

Besides which, I suspect that fans of other clubs, for their part, will have little interest in watching their clubs compete against another club's B team - even if those B teams are better than their clubs' first teams. My guess is that they will deliver an almighty **** off to those clubs that abandoned them. Rightly so.

The rest of the football league love to get drawn with premier league sides in cup competitions despite the fact that they abandonned the rest of the football league when they formed the breakaway premier league. at the end of the day, football is all about money now imo, and these giant clubs will bring that to the english league, hence i think they will be welcomed with open arms

 

[jimmyb]

In the usa, does the anti-competition law you are refering to not exist?

Professional sports in the USA have never been organised in the same way as they are in Europe. There is no sensible comparison to be made. Whether you like it or not, a structure exists in European football which presents no absolute barrier to any club which wishes to compete at the very highest level. A closed shop European Super League would, with one fell swoop, undo all of that. It would signal the effective end for many clubs (companies) that have been in existence for more than 100 years. It would be anti-competitive.

How many fans turn up to watch arsenal in the carling cup? or our own team in the europa league vs some cypriot team?

fans pay big money to watch champions league teams in the champions league and epl, yet they still come to watch them in the fa cup and carling cup, which are significantly inferior competitions

In your dystopian world, cup games would still exist. So you're suggesting that Super League club fans would pay big money to watch, say, 19 home Super League games; + up to 12 home cup games; + another 19 home domestic league games? Maybe 50 home games and 50 away games a season?

Nope.....ain't gonna happen. Overkill.

The rest of the football league love to get drawn with premier league sides in cup competitions despite the fact that they abandonned the rest of the football league when they formed the breakaway premier league. at the end of the day, football is all about money now imo, and these giant clubs will bring that to the english league, hence i think they will be welcomed with open arms

1. The Premier League didn't abandon the remainder of the Football League. Normal promotion and relegation was preserved. That's the point.

2. Football League clubs do indeed love to be drawn against Premier League clubs in the cups - partly because it is a rare occurrence and partly because they are still nominally playing against the Premier League clubs' first team rather than against some B team.

3. B teams wouldn't bring much by way of money into the domestic leagues. If anything, they would destroy the domestic leagues' integrity. They would devalue them as brands.

4. I suspect that fans of non Super League clubs would be utterly contemptuous of the clubs that had abandoned them. They would make it perfectly clear that they wish to have nothing further to do with them.

All hypothetical anyway, because it's highly unlikely to be a closed shop.

 

[jts1882]

In the usa, does the anti-competition law you are refering to not exist?

Professional sports in the USA have never been organised in the same way as they are in Europe. There is no sensible comparison to be made. Whether you like it or not, a structure exists in European football which presents no absolute barrier to any club which wishes to compete at the very highest level. A closed shop European Super League would, with one fell swoop, undo all of that. It would signal the effective end for many clubs (companies) that have been in existence for more than 100 years. It would be anti-competitive.

Baseball actually has an anti-trust exemption because the Supreme Court decided it was a game rather than a business subject to commerce clauses of the constitution.

One explanation I have heard for why the other American sports can get away with it is because players are considered to work for the league. The different teams are just different franchises of the same business, rather than competing businesses. In contrast our football clubs have been limited companies since the 1890s or possibly earlier.

 

[jimmyb]

Baseball actually has an anti-trust exemption because the Supreme Court decided it was a game rather than a business subject to commerce clauses of the constitution.

One explanation I have heard for why the other American sports can get away with it is because players are considered to work for the league. The different teams are just different franchises of the same business, rather than competing businesses. In contrast our football clubs have been limited companies since the 1890s or possibly earlier.

Cheers for that.

The bolded part is particularly interesting and makes sense.

 

[Neymar]

what if the breakaway league was formed under a similar structure?

 

[Jordinho]

There would clearly be issues with FIFA. By its very name a breakaway league means opting out of what FIFA and UEFA are in charge of.

 

[jimmyb]

what if the breakaway league was formed under a similar structure?

If we were talking about a completely new sport with a completely novel structure, then maybe. But it's clearly too late for that.

European football's basic structure is well established and, as a consequence, there are a great many long standing businesses that would suddenly find themselves in deep financial difficulty purely as a consequence of the anti-competitive actions of a small minority of football clubs trying to corner the market.

There is no way that EU competition law isn't going to have something to say about it.

 

[milo]

Hasn't it been suggested before that players playing in a breakaway league which was not sanctioned by UEFA would be banned from international competition?

 

[Baleforce]

I think it has Milo, but that's less of an issue with each passing generation.

 

[milo]

I think it has Milo, but that's less of an issue with each passing generation.

Playing at the World Cup is still a big deal. I cannot imagine that there are many players in the peak of their career who would want to miss it.

 

[Baleforce]

For now, could be very different 20/25 years down the road.

 

[jts1882]

what if the breakaway league was formed under a similar structure?

I can't see why it would fall foul of European law, based on logic, not any particular lawyerese.

There is no compulsion for clubs to play in any league. If clubs opted out and merged into the Dein-Kenyon Super-Football Circus Corporation that would be their entitlement. The players could play for various franchises as determined by the umbrella corporation, which seems to be how the American sports run.

UEFA, FIFA and national FAs wouldn't like it, but I don't think they can stop it. The new league would add to the competition in the market for footballers. The football authorities would try and stop it, by not allowing B teams in the national leagues and probably trying to ban the players from the world cup and continental tournaments. This last bit seems to me the uncertain bit. I don't see how a ban on international football should be a restraint of trade, as they don't make their money from international football, but you never know how it would be interpreted. It would make the players reluctant to join if the ban was implemented, perhaps creating a parallel system like the Kerry Packer breakaway in cricket.

However, I can't see the big clubs being willing to subsume their identity to the larger football corporation, so I don't think this route is practical.

 

[Neymar]

I can't see why it would fall foul of European law, based on logic, not any particular lawyerese.

There is no compulsion for clubs to play in any league. If clubs opted out and merged into the Dein-Kenyon Super-Football Circus Corporation that would be their entitlement. The players could play for various franchises as determined by the umbrella corporation, which seems to be how the American sports run.

UEFA, FIFA and national FAs wouldn't like it, but I don't think they can stop it. The new league would add to the competition in the market for footballers. The football authorities would try and stop it, by not allowing B teams in the national leagues and probably trying to ban the players from the world cup and continental tournaments. This last bit seems to me the uncertain bit. I don't see how a ban on international football should be a restraint of trade, as they don't make their money from international football, but you never know how it would be interpreted. It would make the players reluctant to join if the ban was implemented, perhaps creating a parallel system like the Kerry Packer breakaway in cricket.

However, I can't see the big clubs being willing to subsume their identity to the larger football corporation, so I don't think this route is practical.

do you think if big clubs in europe formed a breakaway league (not under a franchise system) it would be deemed anti-competitive under EU law? i dont see how it could be opposed tbh, and cant find any articles on it, but evidently jimmyb seems to disagree

 

[Neymar]

In your dystopian world, cup games would still exist. So you're suggesting that Super League club fans would pay big money to watch, say, 19 home Super League games; + up to 12 home cup games; + another 19 home domestic league games? Maybe 50 home games and 50 away games a season?

Nope.....ain't gonna happen. Overkill.

some would argue its a utopian football world. where fans get to see the best vs the best more frequently. but anyway 1) fans dont have to go to every game, and 2) theres absolutely no reason there has to be that many games.

1. The Premier League didn't abandon the remainder of the Football League. Normal promotion and relegation was preserved. That's the point.

2. Football League clubs do indeed love to be drawn against Premier League clubs in the cups - partly because it is a rare occurrence and partly because they are still nominally playing against the Premier League clubs' first team rather than against some B team.

3. B teams wouldn't bring much by way of money into the domestic leagues. If anything, they would destroy the domestic leagues' integrity. They would devalue them as brands.

4. I suspect that fans of non Super League clubs would be utterly contemptuous of the clubs that had abandoned them. They would make it perfectly clear that they wish to have nothing further to do with them.

All hypothetical anyway, because it's highly unlikely to be a closed shop.

Teams dont have to be labelled as B teams. Much in the same way that arsenal dont say its their "reserve team" playing in the carling cup. Is the integrity of the FA and Carling Cup destroyed because arsenal, chelsea, us, man utd, city etc put out reserve teams in the cups? And lets not forget its these teams that bring the most attention to these cups too.

And regarding your 4th point, the breakaway clubs havent abandonned them per se. I would imagine they still want to play in the domestic competitions (in some format). They just wouldnt want to put all their resources/best players into the domestic competitions. It would make no sense to do so.

if the domestic competitions only bring in 50m of revenue per year, whilst the breakaway league brings in say 500m, clubs would be crazy to spend much more than 50m on their playing staff for the domestic league. it would hamper their campaign in the breakaway league, which is responsible for the majority of the revenue. These clubs would probably still be fielding competitive sides in the domestic leagues and in no-way have abandonned them imo. The breakaway league is ultimately just a more fair way to re-allocate revenue. And also re-address the competive balance in the domestic leagues that you were complaining about earlier.

 

[Jordinho]

Emirates Marketing Project managed to halve their financial losses during their run to the Premier League title last season, and hope to avoid breaching Uefa’s financial fair play regulations again.

City say they lost £23m in 2013-14, down from £51.6m the previous fiscal year. That includes paying Uefa a £16m penalty over FFP breaches.

In a sign of the Abu Dhabi-owned club’s growing stature since the 2008 takeover, turnover has broken the £300m mark for the first time, reaching £347m.

The City chairman Khaldoon al-Mubarak said the club has “moved beyond the period of heavy investment that was required to make the club competitive again”.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/03/manchester-city-financial-results

 

[SteveAWOL]

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