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Politics, politics, politics

Gilzeantoscore said:
What's the point of a Labour Party that is a pale imitation of the Tories? They need to define themselves through points of difference.
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Wouldn't that then be choosing where to sit for the sake of it, a party with conviction would choose where their ideology lies, come up with policies to support that idelogy and then explain them well enough to the electorate to make them understand and want to vote for them.
 
I'm talking about the conversation they need to start. Yes, of course the policy must be based on conviction. I have formed the view that the Tory/New Labour position was a result of it being an easier option than selling real Labour ideas.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
I'm talking about the conversation they need to start. Yes, of course the policy must be based on conviction. I have formed the view that the Tory/New Labour position was a result of it being an easier option than selling real Labour ideas.
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Or that it's what the electorate has wanted for more than 35 years now.

The world that kind of party last won an election in doesn't exist any more.
 
scaramanga said:
Or that it's what the electorate has wanted for more than 35 years now.

The world that kind of party last won an election in doesn't exist any more.
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No, it does not, but as Marx said, the point is not to interpret the world, but to change it. Just because things are as they are now, does not mean that is how they will always be. No matter how much the Tory boosters would like it to be so.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
No, it does not, but as Marx said, the point is not to interpret the world, but to change it. Just because things are as they are now, does not mean that is how they will always be. No matter how much the Tory boosters would like it to be so.
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I think you're in danger of trying to rewrite history there. Marx's silly little thought experiments have failed everywhere people have tried to turn them into reality.

The division of labour has made us all far, far richer than Marx ever dreamed possible. His belief that we all had to throw a violent protest to engineer change like some emotionally departed teenager has proven him wrong. The value of any good or service has, empirically, been shown to be a product of its supply and demand.
 
scaramanga said:
I think you're in danger of trying to rewrite history there. Marx's silly little thought experiments have failed everywhere people have tried to turn them into reality.

The division of labour has made us all far, far richer than Marx ever dreamed possible. His belief that we all had to throw a violent protest to engineer change like some emotionally departed teenager has proven him wrong. The value of any good or service has, empirically, been shown to be a product of its supply and demand.
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The quote referenced change, not my support for all of Marx's economic theories.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
The quote referenced change, not my support for all of Marx's economic theories.
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Wasn't one of Marx's main theories about change that (horribly paraphrasing here) opposing opinions will build up more and more distrust and resentment until change is forced to come around by means of revolution?

If so, you should probably pick another person to quote from if you want change ;)
 
The Tory world view, " this is the best of all possible worlds. There is only this world. There are no other worlds. This is the best world for me, therefore it is the best world for you."
 
scaramanga said:
Wasn't one of Marx's main theories about change that (horribly paraphrasing here) opposing opinions will build up more and more distrust and resentment until change is forced to come around by means of revolution?

If so, you should probably pick another person to quote from if you want change ;)
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Inherent contradictions within capitalism...such as monopolies. Classes with contradictory interests...capitalists and workers...thesis, antithesis, synthesis.. dialectics...historical materialism.
 
scaramanga said:
Isn't that just a small step back to the old days when those with learning problems and/or mental disabilities weren't allowed to vote?
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You mean Tories? :D

It is ridiculous though. I can understand if you stop MP and members of others parties voting, to stop a sabotage. But that is just ridiculous and potentially alienates every civil servant as a possible Labour voter
 
Looks like Farage was right about North Africa and the mass immigration.

Maybe its time to say enough is enough and the UN takes over Syria or Egypt backed by Europe's armies and builds a new country akin to Israel for all these people to live peacefully.

Maybe we shouldn't have France involved as they cannot defend a wire fence.. they are useless twunts.
 
Maybe the UAE, Kuwait, Saudi and Qatar can step in to assist their "brothers" and provide aid, considering they have more space and disposable finance to help, that and they are pretty close by...
 
But they don't want to go to the gulf states, they want a nice socialy democratic European country.

I do wonder how many are actually Syrian, or as Syrians seemed to be getting a free pass just claiming to be.
Had to shake my head last week, first two items on radio 4 news, complaints about the chilcott inquiry being late. Lots of war should never have happened, illegal, learn the lesson. Item two Syrian refugees, when is someone (yes you America and its allies) do something about these poor people's suffering. Would be funny if it wasn't so bloody tragic.
 
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