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Politics, politics, politics

I have come to respect and admire your views even if I do not agree with them.

But anyone who wants to make Britain great is a ducking tosser. Decent, kind, respectfull and hard working. Great, that is for tossers like Trump.

I've long been a fan of Danish pastry. We need more creativity in and around politics. People who can offer something different to the same old rubbish, put forward something fresh. To me that's all Trump, UKIP etc represent - peoples' desire for someone to call it like it is and offer something fresh. The establishment are still trying to fathom what is happening. But there isn't much to it, politics is just stale and needs more dynamism. In a world of 'disruption', rebranding, re/invention, we have political systems and classes that haven't changed for over a century.
 
Do you not think a big part of the problem though is that, since 1992, we've outsourced so much of our governance? If things like trade, laws and borders are beyond the remit of the national government, there's not actually much they can do. Tinker a bit with economic management/tax and spend maybe, but all within narrow parameters. If you are expecting something downgraded to a village fete committee to be bold and courageous, it just isn't possible.

Look at the EU's defiance when Italy proposed innovative spending plans - they pretty much tried to bring down the democratically elected government (and have done similar things in Greece)


There is a massive amount government could and should do...starting with getting themsevels in order. Ministries as well as the way Parliment functions should be improved. The machinery of government and democracy, needs attention.

Most of the Ministries are located meters from Parliament...but they remain in the shadows and for the most part horribly inefficient. They are risk adverse and civil servants lack motivation. Their remit is to avoid embarrassment. Not develop more effective ways that schools could run etc but to avoid sticking their head out or being embarrsed. Costs could be saved and services improved across the board. But there seems to be no incentives for civil servents to make changes. The light shines on MPs but the work of government is in the Ministries.

From here there is a huge amount MPs could improve. For example, making education both more cost effective and pedagogically effective. Creating more oppotunites for Brits etc. I was with an MP who was on an education select committee. I asked him how often they visit the Department for Education. Never! Parliment is 200 meters from the DoE, but they don't engage with the agents of education - the people who oversee UK education. There isn't joined up thinking most of the time. UK national goverence is reactionary, focused on addressing stories the media runs or issues business lobbies for. The Tory party are supposed to favour lean government. But its mostly rhetoric. Why are they not getting their hands dirty looking at how Ministries and civil servants work (and waste)?

I think the EUs reaction to Greece and Italy was simply about money. We lent you a tonne of cash, you need to tighten up, because we (Germany) don't want you to owe us indefinitely.
 
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So Best case scenario... The biggest Brexit financial Backer is offered favourable (below market value) deals that are restricted to only friends of a hostile foreign power...

And yet us Remoaners are the Traitors.

Naturally Banks took them. It explains where his money came from, and why he so lavishly backed Brexit. It's just that he has a web of companies, and possibly different people, fronting their ownership. Read between the lines, and this is what he is saying too. It was offered to me, but 'I' didn't take it up (because technically they are owned by an offershore trust and Bank's brother/wife/cat/a random person employed by an accountant is the named director). Who wouldn't turn down a free or cut price Russian gold mine!?
 
Naturally Banks took them. It explains where his money came from, and why he so lavishly backed Brexit. It's just that he has a web of companies, and possibly different people, fronting their ownership. Read between the lines, and this is what he is saying too. It was offered to me, but 'I' didn't take it up (because technically they are owned by an offershore trust and Bank's brother/wife/cat/a random person employed by an accountant is the named director). Who wouldn't turn down a free or cut price Russian gold mine!?

We don't know if he took them or not, so that's up in the air. But we do know this guy was being groomed by a hostile foreign power and the results of his actions have lead to destiny defining situation that is in the articulated interestsof that very same hostile foreign power.

Again I ask... Who are the Traitors? Who is the fifth column here?
 
We don't know if he took them or not, so that's up in the air. But we do know this guy was being groomed by a hostile foreign power and the results of his actions have lead to destiny defining situation that is in the articulated interestsof that very same hostile foreign power.

Again I ask... Who are the Traitors? Who is the fifth column here?

We know he wasn't that wealthy from his UK insurance businesses. What he made would barely cover his fiancing of political campaigns. So he has to have had cash from elsewhere. Beit a Lord Ashcroft, this shady Mellor character who maybe used Banks as a front man, or Banks had preferential deals for Russian assets with the implicit understanding that half the money would be spent on Brexit.

Got to hand it to Russia. After the EU and the US turned is former soviet republic allies/ puppet states away from Russia, it has done an amazing job fuking with western democracy! Trump and now Brexit. It was never this successful during the cold war. The KGB-run Kremlin must be tinkling themsevles. I'm sure they never thought they would have this much success. But then if we gave MI5 our countries resources to play with, I'm sure they'd pull some stunts too.
 
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Got to hand it to Russia. After the EU and the US turned is former soviet republic allies/ puppet states away from Russia, it has done an amazing job fuking with western democracy! Trump and now Brexit. It was never this successful during the cold war. The KGB-run Kremlin must be tinkling themsevles. I'm sure they never thought they would have this much success. But then if we gave MI5 our countries resources to play with, I'm sure they'd pull some stunts too.

Yeah absolutely. I might not like a lot of what Putin is doing... Brexit - Trump - Syria. But you have to hand it to him... With a fraction of the resources he is actually winning this new style 'war' he is subverting west Democracy with comparatively (to the west) megre funds. And he is getting people in those countries to actuality believe they are being patriots when they are doing his bidding... He is a genuine genuis... And if he wasn't harming a country that I love I would have the upmost respect for him... I perversely kind of do even now.

And... What Putin is doing is no more than what the west has been doing for years all across the globe.... This is not even disputable. Putin has just gone modern and nuclear with it... Like I said it's hard to not respect the man.
 
So Best case scenario... The biggest Brexit financial Backer is offered favourable (below market value) deals that are restricted to only friends of a hostile foreign power...

And yet us Remoaners are the Traitors.

The remoaners are, particularly the ones in the civil service, do not expect you to believe me as I could just be saying this to prove an argument but I know for a cast iron fact that the are civil servants in the foreign office changing reports and trying to reverse the process of leaving the EU.

What is leaving the EU? It is a simple act by a sovereign nation wanting to determine its own future, strike its own trade deals on its own terms and control its own borders(something I am guessing will have to happen eventually within mainland Europe in the future ironically)

As for dodgy businessmen making a bit of side money out of something, well as Blair is one of the chief remainers I am not sure I will bother going down that path. Politicans and business people are some of the most corrupt I have met, maybe a prerequisite for those industries I dont know.

I do know that all the people I know that voted out did so because they wanted to see a more independent nation that they had more control over through elections, immigration was an issue for many particularly in the circle I move in a common comment was "fine if we really have to have mass immigration and the traffic is terrible but why does the EU tells us we have to take in criminals as well"

That is the problem with the EU and it has nothing to do with Prutin of Russia, it is the EU that is overbearing and controlling like a possessive partner instead of a trading block. It is in the founders of the EU who wanted to get rid of nation states. It has a one size fit all philosophy which is rather stupid and does not fit, you do not even have that in nationla government because a national government will know to treat different regions with leniency.

Another common reason for people I knew for wanting to vote out was that they wanted to see Britain strike its own trade deals as the EU is so heavily weighted towards protecting German industry and French farming, would be great for us to buy cheaper food from Africa and help improve the economy out there so perhaps those poor sods would not risk life and limb to get to Europe across the med.

Why does the EU engage in protectionism and stop Britain doing trade deals, our commonwealth friends in Australia and New Zealand are very keen to trade with us. Why does is matter to the EU if we have trade deals with other nations as long as we abide by the standards and rules of the bloc when we sell to it. They care because they are a controlling state that wants all power over individual countries, that has nothing to do with Russia or Putin.

Another concern of mine and people I know who voted out was the comments coming from Brussels and people working for the EU how eventually they wanted to have a European army, to be able to arrest people in different countries while circumventing individual countries laws.

Most scary of all is the talk that they wanted to collect taxes on a European level, from a fairly wealthy country but one that needs a lot of investment in services(transport, schools, health service and armed forces) I do not want to see money being paid into taxes into the EU for them to waste on vanity projects or to give to eastern european countries to build roads and bridges(as happens) or to southern european countries who do not live within their means.

I do not want to see French people get their state pension at 60 while we have to work on till 67 but paying taxes directly into the EU. I do not have the links where the EU politicians were talking about this but I remember seeing a tv programme where they freely spoke that this was the future for the EU and seeing how the EU is eradicating power of countries more and more, I believe them.

None of that had anything to do with Putin or Russia but is how the EU behave. I did not need Cameron after meeting a social media giant(facebook) to extend to the date of getting on the electrol roll for the referendum because they had data to tell them that more and more younger voters were signing up(the young voted remain in the biggest percentage) I did not need cameron or any of his cronies to try and tell me they were subverting democracy for their own political points, it was obvious to see.

As for people making money out of the result of the referendum, Nicholas Soames was in my local newspaper the argus in sussex before the referendum saying how he would make a fortune on the result when we stayed in because of spread bets he had on it. His Grandfather would have been turning in his grave.

None of what happened around Brexit had anything to do with Russia and Putin for me and the people I know who voted out. I know you will not accept that and call us useful idiots. But the cat is out of the bag, if Britain is to stay in the EU as you and so many others want, they Britain really does not exist anymore, the laws will all be made in Brussels, we will not really need Judges, just bots who can read out legislation passed in Brussels.

We will have to accept everything that the EU tells us and the will be nothing we can do about it anymore we will have no power or control of the direction of the country in the future, that is quite 1984 and scary to me. At least now the whole truth is out there, because we can decide whether we are a free country of just a pawn in the ideas of some very unseemly empire building federalists.
 
I've long been a fan of Danish pastry. We need more creativity in and around politics. People who can offer something different to the same old rubbish, put forward something fresh. To me that's all Trump, UKIP etc represent - peoples' desire for someone to call it like it is and offer something fresh. The establishment are still trying to fathom what is happening. But there isn't much to it, politics is just stale and needs more dynamism. In a world of 'disruption', rebranding, re/invention, we have political systems and classes that haven't changed for over a century.

Absolutely, I think people are crying out for something different. Some might think it odd that someone who considers themselves centre right is going to be voting for corbyn at the next election, but it is for exactly the reason he is prepared to try different things. UKIP highlighted how huge parts of this country felt about the EU and particularly mass immigration, something new labour said they did to rub the rights nose in it.

Same with Trump in America, Americans were worried about jobs and immigration reducing their living standards, so instead of trying to create new industries of selling the idea of a different sort of life like the one @Gutter Boy describes where working hours are reduced but peoples health is improved by more leisure time, they allowed a psycho in who hates everything. Trump though is a rare in politics in that he actually follows through on what he says he will do and I will find it interesting to see what happens at the next election out there.
 
Absolutely, I think people are crying out for something different. Some might think it odd that someone who considers themselves centre right is going to be voting for corbyn at the next election, but it is for exactly the reason he is prepared to try different things. UKIP highlighted how huge parts of this country felt about the EU and particularly mass immigration, something new labour said they did to rub the rights nose in it.

Same with Trump in America, Americans were worried about jobs and immigration reducing their living standards, so instead of trying to create new industries of selling the idea of a different sort of life like the one @Gutter Boy describes where working hours are reduced but peoples health is improved by more leisure time, they allowed a psycho in who hates everything. Trump though is a rare in politics in that he actually follows through on what he says he will do and I will find it interesting to see what happens at the next election out there.

It's quite ironic that Tony Blair is now one of the foremost remoaners - in my opinion he was unwittingly one of the chief architects of brexit, through the New Labour immigration policies you refer to.
 
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Yeah absolutely. I might not like a lot of what Putin is doing... Brexit - Trump - Syria. But you have to hand it to him... With a fraction of the resources he is actually winning this new style 'war' he is subverting west Democracy with comparatively (to the west) megre funds. And he is getting people in those countries to actuality believe they are being patriots when they are doing his bidding... He is a genuine genuis... And if he wasn't harming a country that I love I would have the upmost respect for him... I perversely kind of do even now.

And... What Putin is doing is no more than what the west has been doing for years all across the globe.... This is not even disputable. Putin has just gone modern and nuclear with it... Like I said it's hard to not respect the man.

Too much is being made of Putin, the evil genius rigging all the elections in the west. Putin didn't give Trump a couple of billion dollars worth of advertising, that was American news media -- the type of media that would rather cover an empty podium (awaiting Trump's entrance) than cover Bernie Sanders when he was speaking at the same time. Putin didn't make Hilary Clinton NOT campaign in states where she should have won, but actually lost (great move Hilary). He didn't rig the democratic nomination process to ensure that the only person who could have lost to Trump got the gig, that was all Hilary Clinton.

Putin also had nothing to do with the right-wing press in this country waging an anti-EU/anti-immigrant propaganda campaign for GHod knows how many years. He had nothing to do with David Cameron calling a referendum in order to try and get a definitive end to the Tories Europe problem.

A few Russian memes have got nothing on the ineptitude of our own politicians or our sh1tty media. Infact, Putin's real victory is him getting credit for subverting our democracy when the factors described previously had much more to do with the outcomes of those elections.
 
Too much is being made of Putin, the evil genius rigging all the elections in the west. Putin didn't give Trump a couple of billion dollars worth of advertising, that was American news media -- the type of media that would rather cover an empty podium (awaiting Trump's entrance) than cover Bernie Sanders when he was speaking at the same time. Putin didn't make Hilary Clinton NOT campaign in states where she should have won, but actually lost (great move Hilary). He didn't rig the democratic nomination process to ensure that the only person who could have lost to Trump got the gig, that was all Hilary Clinton.

Putin also had nothing to do with the right-wing press in this country waging an anti-EU/anti-immigrant propaganda campaign for GHod knows how many years. He had nothing to do with David Cameron calling a referendum in order to try and get a definitive end to the Tories Europe problem.

A few Russian memes have got nothing on the ineptitude of our own politicians or our sh1tty media. Infact, Putin's real victory is him getting credit for subverting our democracy when the factors described previously had much more to do with the outcomes of those elections.

The significance of a state actor interfering with another country’s political processes isn’t only judged by its impact. It’s an act of aggression which is in itself unacceptable. And anyway, both Brexit and Trump were close enough for any contributing factor to have potentially swayed the balance. So yeah, it’s important. I don’t think enough is bein made of it, especially not as far as Brexit is concerned.
 
The significance of a state actor interfering with another country’s political processes isn’t only judged by its impact. It’s an act of aggression which is in itself unacceptable. And anyway, both Brexit and Trump were close enough for any contributing factor to have potentially swayed the balance. So yeah, it’s important. I don’t think enough is bein made of it, especially not as far as Brexit is concerned.

You really think they (as in Russia) tipped the balance? The brexit vote was motivated, people knew how they were going to vote right off the bat, that's why the "experts didn't matter." They had years of Murdoch et al behind that. Putin wasn't swaying them one way or another and I don't see how Russia contributed to the apathy of the Remain vote either

As for Clinton, the Russia narrative has been pushed by her people from the second that she lost, to cover her own failings and the corruption of the Democratic Party. I think Trump is a phucking crook and is likely involved in dodgy business deals with Russian crooks. I hope he gets what's coming to him. But that doesn't make him Putin's puppet.

Is it acceptable for another state to try and interfere in our elections? No. But what goes around comes around, our governments (USA and Britain) can't act like innocent victims. And in any case, there needs to be some substantial evidence of Russia influencing anything at all. When people who voted for Obama twice stayed home for Hilary Clinton, that wasn't Russian influence -- that was because Obama and the democrats let them down.

Blaming Russia just lets our own politicians and media off the hook, imo.
 
The significance of a state actor interfering with another country’s political processes isn’t only judged by its impact. It’s an act of aggression which is in itself unacceptable. And anyway, both Brexit and Trump were close enough for any contributing factor to have potentially swayed the balance. So yeah, it’s important. I don’t think enough is bein made of it, especially not as far as Brexit is concerned.

Have a look at Ukraine, and how a democratically elected (pro Russian puppet) president was overthrown with the US openly spending huge sums funding right wing Ukrainian revolutionary groups.

I guess that’s more palatable, we wouldn’t even flag it? Someone was shooting dead people on both sides during the Maiden square uprising instigating more violence and revolution. This has to be far far worse, destabilising a nation and sending it into civil war, than funding some nationalistic twit.

As outlined by DZA, while wrong, it’s too simplistic to attribute a free vote result to this dodgy funding.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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Too much is being made of Putin, the evil genius rigging all the elections in the west. Putin didn't give Trump a couple of billion dollars worth of advertising, that was American news media -- the type of media that would rather cover an empty podium (awaiting Trump's entrance) than cover Bernie Sanders when he was speaking at the same time. Putin didn't make Hilary Clinton NOT campaign in states where she should have won, but actually lost (great move Hilary). He didn't rig the democratic nomination process to ensure that the only person who could have lost to Trump got the gig, that was all Hilary Clinton.

Putin also had nothing to do with the right-wing press in this country waging an anti-EU/anti-immigrant propaganda campaign for GHod knows how many years. He had nothing to do with David Cameron calling a referendum in order to try and get a definitive end to the Tories Europe problem.

A few Russian memes have got nothing on the ineptitude of our own politicians or our sh1tty media. Infact, Putin's real victory is him getting credit for subverting our democracy when the factors described previously had much more to do with the outcomes of those elections.

It was a number of different factors. Some of which you absolutely correctly identify. That doesn't take away from the fact that one contributing factor to both Brexit and Trump was a hostile foreign government subverting democracy for their own interests.

It goes far beyond just some russian Memes.
There's proganda factories with millions of pounds per month budgets used to disseminate nefarious mesages... There is a lot more to this mate.
 
It was a number of different factors. Some of which you absolutely correctly identify. That doesn't take away from the fact that one contributing factor to both Brexit and Trump was a hostile foreign government subverting democracy for their own interests.

It goes far beyond just some russian Memes.
There's proganda factories with millions of pounds per month budgets used to disseminate nefarious mesages... There is a lot more to this mate.
I dare say we know only a fraction of what is going on.
 
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The remoaners are, particularly the ones in the civil service, do not expect you to believe me as I could just be saying this to prove an argument but I know for a cast iron fact that the are civil servants in the foreign office changing reports and trying to reverse the process of leaving the EU.

What is leaving the EU? It is a simple act by a sovereign nation wanting to determine its own future, strike its own trade deals on its own terms and control its own borders(something I am guessing will have to happen eventually within mainland Europe in the future ironically)

As for dodgy businessmen making a bit of side money out of something, well as Blair is one of the chief remainers I am not sure I will bother going down that path. Politicans and business people are some of the most corrupt I have met, maybe a prerequisite for those industries I dont know.

I do know that all the people I know that voted out did so because they wanted to see a more independent nation that they had more control over through elections, immigration was an issue for many particularly in the circle I move in a common comment was "fine if we really have to have mass immigration and the traffic is terrible but why does the EU tells us we have to take in criminals as well"

That is the problem with the EU and it has nothing to do with Prutin of Russia, it is the EU that is overbearing and controlling like a possessive partner instead of a trading block. It is in the founders of the EU who wanted to get rid of nation states. It has a one size fit all philosophy which is rather stupid and does not fit, you do not even have that in nationla government because a national government will know to treat different regions with leniency.

Another common reason for people I knew for wanting to vote out was that they wanted to see Britain strike its own trade deals as the EU is so heavily weighted towards protecting German industry and French farming, would be great for us to buy cheaper food from Africa and help improve the economy out there so perhaps those poor sods would not risk life and limb to get to Europe across the med.

Why does the EU engage in protectionism and stop Britain doing trade deals, our commonwealth friends in Australia and New Zealand are very keen to trade with us. Why does is matter to the EU if we have trade deals with other nations as long as we abide by the standards and rules of the bloc when we sell to it. They care because they are a controlling state that wants all power over individual countries, that has nothing to do with Russia or Putin.

Another concern of mine and people I know who voted out was the comments coming from Brussels and people working for the EU how eventually they wanted to have a European army, to be able to arrest people in different countries while circumventing individual countries laws.

Most scary of all is the talk that they wanted to collect taxes on a European level, from a fairly wealthy country but one that needs a lot of investment in services(transport, schools, health service and armed forces) I do not want to see money being paid into taxes into the EU for them to waste on vanity projects or to give to eastern european countries to build roads and bridges(as happens) or to southern european countries who do not live within their means.

I do not want to see French people get their state pension at 60 while we have to work on till 67 but paying taxes directly into the EU. I do not have the links where the EU politicians were talking about this but I remember seeing a tv programme where they freely spoke that this was the future for the EU and seeing how the EU is eradicating power of countries more and more, I believe them.

None of that had anything to do with Putin or Russia but is how the EU behave. I did not need Cameron after meeting a social media giant(facebook) to extend to the date of getting on the electrol roll for the referendum because they had data to tell them that more and more younger voters were signing up(the young voted remain in the biggest percentage) I did not need cameron or any of his cronies to try and tell me they were subverting democracy for their own political points, it was obvious to see.

As for people making money out of the result of the referendum, Nicholas Soames was in my local newspaper the argus in sussex before the referendum saying how he would make a fortune on the result when we stayed in because of spread bets he had on it. His Grandfather would have been turning in his grave.

None of what happened around Brexit had anything to do with Russia and Putin for me and the people I know who voted out. I know you will not accept that and call us useful idiots. But the cat is out of the bag, if Britain is to stay in the EU as you and so many others want, they Britain really does not exist anymore, the laws will all be made in Brussels, we will not really need Judges, just bots who can read out legislation passed in Brussels.

We will have to accept everything that the EU tells us and the will be nothing we can do about it anymore we will have no power or control of the direction of the country in the future, that is quite 1984 and scary to me. At least now the whole truth is out there, because we can decide whether we are a free country of just a pawn in the ideas of some very unseemly empire building federalists.

Bruv I respect your opinions, I may not agree but respect them never the less that doesn't take away from the fact that a hostile foreign government influenced the defining vote of our generation. You may not have been influenced by them but there are undoubtedly some that were.
 
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