Politics, politics, politics

[Parklaner81]

you have no idea how many of those voting wanted a soft brexit at the time of the vote remaining in the EEA was one of the possible options.

You're right, this is something we can never know.

However my own personal feeling is that the number you refer to here would be very low. Given the 'black and white' nature of the vote, if I myself had been at all concerned about EEA membership, I'd have felt I had no choice but to vote remain.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I agree with the bit in bold. But from the EU side of things, why would they give Britain what they want and then have all the other member states knocking on the door saying they want the same deal? This is why they are not flexible in negotiations imo, it is to protect the integrity of the organisation as a whole. And then add to that they know we have a weak government that doesn't hold many cards in the negotiations. We're the ones leaving, they go "ok fine, these are the terms for countries outside of the EU/Single Market, goodbye and goodluck."

As for Corbyn, he only wants to take on the EU in a certain way I think. He doesn't give two phucks about immigration imo (and I don't either really, even though I do get some of the arguments against how EU migration has gone). I think that the concessions he would ultimately like to get from the EU are probably gettable, as he'd leave freedom of movement on the table imo. But that's just my best guest, I don't know what I'm on about for the most part.

State aid and competition laws are Corbyn's big bug bears with the EU - they prevent re-nationalisation and cancelling on PPIs.

But social dumping isn't conducive to protecting British wages and conditions, so he's definitely not a friend of FoM.

 

[Rorschach]

As one of those internet Trots, I do agree with you on this. We need to change our electoral system and separate out the factions of the parties into their own individual parties, and let them then form formal coalitions and go from there.

You need PR.

 

[Gutter Boy]

You need PR.

It doesn't fit with the English psyche. We like to be able to have a nuclear option of sweeping away everything and giving the new guys full authority to implement entirely their specific manifesto. The permanence/unaccountably of the EU is one reason it was so despised.

 

[r-u-s-x]

You're right, this is something we can never know.

However my own personal feeling is that the number you refer to here would be very low. Given the 'black and white' nature of the vote, if I myself had been at all concerned about EEA membership, I'd have felt I had no choice but to vote remain.

For a long while Farage was pushing the Norwegian model, pre vote every thing was on offer, going around in circles on this (see earlier in this thread) but the vote was never clear in the outcome of Brexit... Mainly because no one in charge thought it would win.

 

[Parklaner81]

For a long while Farage was pushing the Norwegian model, pre vote every thing was on offer, going around in circles on this (see earlier in this thread) but the vote was never clear in the outcome of Brexit

I don't entirely disagree with your point, but my own opinion is that being wedded to something such as EEA and at the same time voting for brexit, given the divisiveness of the campaign is a fairly unlikely position to have taken.

Of course, I wouldn't expect too many remainers to (admit that they) agree...

 

[r-u-s-x]

I don't entirely disagree with your point, but my own opinion is that being wedded to something such as EEA and at the same time voting for brexit, given the divisiveness of the campaign is a fairly unlikely position to have taken.

it's feasible (I think likely) that 4% of those who voted brexit were pro Swiss model or Norwegian or thought we could have our cake and eat it, it only needed that sort of number to switch the vote.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

It's pretty clear where this has all gone wrong. The government should have fully debated the issue and then put out a precise model to the vote, rather than the muddled mess we have now.

 

[scaramanga]

There doesn't need to be another vote now A50 has been inacted. Inaction would just bring about WTO on 1 April.

This is the crux of it. Currently, walking away is significantly better than anything the EU is offering. May gets to keep her promise of allowing the traitors to have a say in any deal, whilst at the same time getting the best deal on offer for the UK.

 

[Parklaner81]

It's pretty clear where this has all gone wrong. The government should have fully debated the issue and then put out a precise model to the vote, rather than the muddled mess we have now.

Don't disagree with the logic, but something tells me that the EU would simply have been as awkward as possible in relation to any chosen approach. They want to make this as difficult as possible for us. We've made it easy for them, but they'd have acted in the same manner whatever.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It's pretty clear where this has all gone wrong. The government should have fully debated the issue and then put out a precise model to the vote, rather than the muddled mess we have now.

The EU just would have declared that nothing was possible other than WTO. Only by actually going through with it are they considering a half-in half-out option, to try and keep us in their grasp.

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's pretty clear where this has all gone wrong. The government should have fully debated the issue and then put out a precise model to the vote, rather than the muddled mess we have now.

And being upfront and open would have probably helped negotiations with the EU, not hindered them. This premise that the government have to be coy, calculated and manipulate the EU backfired, and it was just a cover for not having their ducks lined up. Brexit is hard enough with a plan, without one, making it up as you go along...its impossible.

@Danishfurniturelover Brexit didn't die yesterday or with Cameron, it never had any foundations to begin with. Those that perpetrated it, the likes of Banks and Farage, never had a real vision. Other than to save themselves taxes and improve their lot for their businesses. That Farage was talking about the Norway model in the run up to vote, shows how ill thought out the whole thing is. Norway model being the same as now but with less control and very limited freedom from the EU. But then Farage it transpires loves to hate the EU. Takes a £100k+ salary for snearning at them, with free travel and nice wine lunches in Strasbourg, and when push comes to shove he realised what a f.up Brexit would be for the economy and said it should be cancelled!

As mentioned pages back, an astute politician would take the core themes of Brexit and integrate them into a UK manifesto. One which puts Brits first, creates jobs for them, uses the potential controls on EU migration that are allowed within the EU, and develops a sense of national identity and drive. We don't need to leave a trading block to do that.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

And being upfront and open would have probably helped negotiations with the EU, not hindered them. This premise that the government have to be coy, calculated and manipulate the EU backfired, and it was just a cover for not having their ducks lined up. Brexit is hard enough with a plan, without one, making it up as you go along...its impossible.

@Danishfurniturelover Brexit didn't die yesterday or with Cameron, it never had any foundations to begin with. Those that perpetrated it, the likes of Banks and Farage, never had a real vision. Other than to save themselves taxes and improve their lot for their businesses. That Farage was talking about the Norway model in the run up to vote, shows how ill thought out the whole thing is. Norway model being the same as now but with less control and very limited freedom from the EU. But then Farage it transpires loves to hate the EU. Takes a £100k+ salary for snearning at them, with free travel and nice wine lunches in Strasbourg, and when push comes to shove he realised what a f.up Brexit would be for the economy and said it should be cancelled!

As mentioned pages back, an astute politician would take the core themes of Brexit and integrate them into a UK manifesto. One which puts Brits first, creates jobs for them, uses the potential controls on EU migration that are allowed within the EU, and develops a sense of national identity and drive. We don't need to leave a trading block to do that.

It is no longer just a trading block it is a political union.

Farage has his faults but the only way to showcase the issues with the EU was to take a job as an MEP.

It is going to store up bigger problems for the future, because the dictators who run the EU do not care what the people of individual countries want and they are eroding freedoms of those countries. It is not just the UK that has issues with the EU. I have said before and will say again if the EU was just a trading block then I would vote for it without a moments hesitation.

 

[SpurMeUp]

It is no longer just a trading block it is a political union.

Farage has his faults but the only way to showcase the issues with the EU was to take a job as an MEP.

It is going to store up bigger problems for the future, because the dictators who run the EU do not care what the people of individual countries want and they are eroding freedoms of those countries. It is not just the UK that has issues with the EU. I have said before and will say again if the EU was just a trading block then I would vote for it without a moments hesitation.

No doubt there are political aspects to the EU. It allows things like a unified approach to Russia after their secrete services poisoned a UK citizen. You also need some political union to facilitate trade or to develop a new EU satellite system etc. But at its heart it's a customs union. Why does no one vote at EU elections? Because they don't matter. What political aspects of the political side of the EU don't you like?

Yes and then Farage said maybe we should cancel Brexit! So much for his aim of 'highlighting' the EUs faults.

Who are these EU 'dictators' - the other - who want to erode peoples freedoms? Makes them sound like Hitler types. Lets not forget the EU was setup as a reaction to the World Wars to keep peace and prosperity, and so far they have done just that. I can't see any dictators in Europe, bar Belarus which is outside the EU. Careful what you wish for.

 

[Gutter Boy]

How do you vote out any of the 5 EU presidents? You can't. The EU badly fails Tony Benn's 5 tests for a democracy:

“What power have you got?”
“Where did you get it from?”
“In whose interests do you use it?”
“To whom are you accountable?”
“How do we get rid of you?”

It's an empire that colonises through economics and creeping treating changes. It's 21st century imperialism, rather than done with soldiers like in the 20th, but it's still imperialism.

 

[r-u-s-x]

How do you vote out any of the 5 EU presidents? You can't. The EU badly fails Tony Benn's 5 tests for a democracy:

“What power have you got?”
“Where did you get it from?”
“In whose interests do you use it?”
“To whom are you accountable?”
“How do we get rid of you?”

It's an empire that colonises through economics and creeping treating changes. It's 21st century imperialism, rather than done with soldiers like in the 20th, but it's still imperialism.

When do I get to vote on the Queen or HOL?

 

[Gutter Boy]

When do I get to vote on the Queen or HOL?

They don't have any power. The Lords can delay things not in manifestos for a year. The Queen can dissolve parliament and call a general election. But other than those specific functions that are designed to check the HoC, 99% of power is with the Commons (personally I would though change the HoL to the Irish model)

The EU in contrast dictates the whole macro-system we operate in. That we can't have state owned industries, that the public sector has to be exploited by private sub-contractors, that we can't control our borders and stop social dumping, what a sizable chunk of our taxes gets spent on, and that a whole range laws are imposed on us. And there's no accountability, nor ability for us to change any of that.

 

[SpurMeUp]

They don't have any power. The Lords can delay things not in manifestos for a year. The Queen can dissolve parliament and call a general election. But other than those specific functions that are designed to check the HoC, 99% of power is with the Commons (personally I would though change the HoL to the Irish model)

The EU in contrast dictates the whole macro-system we operate in. That we can't have state owned industries, that the public sector has to be exploited by private sub-contractors, that we can't control our borders and stop social dumping, what a sizable chunk of our taxes gets spent on, and that a whole range laws are imposed on us. And there's no accountability, nor ability for us to change any of that.

This is the kind of "disruptive" lies that Aaron Banks would be proud of. Its nonsense. What is a 'macro-system we operate in' for a start? Do you mean the uk? By creating an impression and using emotion about the foreign "other" and protecting us from them etc., is how a few very rich people *and possibly Russia) managed to create this damaging farce.

• 'State owned industries.' Many EU countries have them. Just look at our closest neighbour France. It has state owned energy and transportation companies (who both make money off our privatised state industries!), they have also protected and partially or wholly state owned car companies, and maintain state concerns within them. So that is clearly a lie.

• 'Public sector has to be exploited by private sub-contractors.' Other nations in the EU have far far less privatised fulfillment of the public sector. These are things that OUR governments have done, especially conservatives ones, but not exclusively.

• We have border checks. We control our borders. Its emotive nonsense. "social dumping" is catchy. We could log every EU citizen who comes into the UK and if they are not working within a month or whatever, we can deport them. That we don't is the UK governments choice. The uk government. But let's not let facts get in the way of a soundbite.

• We spend around £130 billion on the NHS we spend £8.6 billion net on the EU, possibly less (and we get back far more in trade etc). I'd say the spend on the NHS is a sizable chunk of taxes, the EU not so much.

I am all for disrupting stale, stuck politics. I like revolution. But not the things that are doing good and are evolving, developing and have vision. The EU represents people, advancing things like pollution laws, free mobile phone roaming, a new EU satellite system that doesn't rely on the US, it ensures workers have rights and generally the people who don't like it own companies who would like to get around these laws and exploit people. The stale system that needs disruption is the UK government: how it functions and works for people.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Sections of the UK car industry face extinction unless the UK stays in the EU customs union, the president of the CBI has said.

Paul Dreschler also said there was "zero evidence" that trade deals outside the EU would provide any economic benefit to Britain.

He blamed a "tidal wave of ideology" for the government's Brexit approach.

But the government said it was "focused on delivering a Brexit that works for the whole of the UK"

 

[Gutter Boy]

This is the kind of "disruptive" lies that Aaron Banks would be proud of. Its nonsense. What is a 'macro-system we operate in' for a start? Do you mean the uk? By creating an impression and using emotion about the foreign "other" and protecting us from them etc., is how a few very rich people *and possibly Russia) managed to create this damaging farce.

• 'State owned industries.' Many EU countries have them. Just look at our closest neighbour France. It has state owned energy and transportation companies (who both make money off our privatised state industries!), they have also protected and partially or wholly state owned car companies, and maintain state concerns within them. So that is clearly a lie.

• 'Public sector has to be exploited by private sub-contractors.' Other nations in the EU have far far less privatised fulfillment of the public sector. These are things that OUR governments have done, especially conservatives ones, but not exclusively.

• We have border checks. We control our borders. Its emotive nonsense. "social dumping" is catchy. We could log every EU citizen who comes into the UK and if they are not working within a month or whatever, we can deport them. That we don't is the UK governments choice. The uk government. But let's not let facts get in the way of a soundbite.

• We spend around £130 billion on the NHS we spend £8.6 billion net on the EU, possibly less (and we get back far more in trade etc). I'd say the spend on the NHS is a sizable chunk of taxes, the EU not so much.

I am all for disrupting stale, stuck politics. I like revolution. But not the things that are doing good and are evolving, developing and have vision. The EU represents people, advancing things like pollution laws, free mobile phone roaming, a new EU satellite system that doesn't rely on the US, it ensures workers have rights and generally the people who don't like it own companies who would like to get around these laws and exploit people. The stale system that needs disruption is the UK government: how it functions and works for people.

This is the kind of "disruptive" lies that Aaron Banks would be proud of. Its nonsense. What is a 'macro-system we operate in' for a start? Do you mean the uk? By creating an impression and using emotion about the foreign "other" and protecting us from them etc., is how a few very rich people *and possibly Russia) managed to create this damaging farce.

Neo-liberalism. The EU serves the interests of global capital


There is no foreign other - the EU27 are as much enslaved as we are. And the third world are victims too, as the EU supresses homegrown secondary and tertiary industry that would bring them out of poverty.

•'State owned industries.' Many EU countries have them. Just look at our closest neighbour France. It has state owned energy and transportation companies (who both make money off our privatised state industries!), they have also protected and partially or wholly state owned car companies, and maintain state concerns within them. So that is clearly a lie.

State owned industries are allowed to compete for contracts under EU tendering rules. But all amenities and transport has to be opened to international private companies - state monopolies, like you actually need for infrastructure, are not allowed

•'Public sector has to be exploited by private sub-contractors.' Other nations in the EU have far far less privatised fulfillment of the public sector. These are things that OUR governments have done, especially conservatives ones, but not exclusively.

Again, it’s the tendering/competition laws. You have to open these to private companies, who undercut and kill-off all the small operators, then put their prices up 10 times

•We have border checks. We control our borders. Its emotive nonsense. "social dumping" is catchy. We could log every EU citizen who comes into the UK and if they are not working within a month or whatever, we can deport them. That we don't is the UK governments choice. The uk government. But let's not let facts get in the way of a soundbite.

Of course they are working. Social dumping is moving people en masse from poor areas to richer areas, because they will do work cheaper/with less conditions than the existing populations, and thereby increase profit margins. It's the interests of global capital screwing over local communities, and those the migrant workers are leaving behind. It's perverse, and so contrary to the interests of society.

•We spend around £130 billion on the NHS we spend £8.6 billion net on the EU, possibly less (and we get back far more in trade etc). I'd say the spend on the NHS is a sizable chunk of taxes, the EU not so much.
I am all for disrupting stale, stuck politics. I like revolution. But not the things that are doing good and are evolving, developing and have vision. The EU represents people, advancing things like pollution laws, free mobile phone roaming, a new EU satellite system that doesn't rely on the US, it ensures workers have rights and generally the people who don't like it own companies who would like to get around these laws and exploit people. The stale system that needs disruption is the UK government: how it functions and works for people.

Throwing you a crust of bread while they tighten the shackles round your ankles. It's a completely malevolent organisation.