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Politics, politics, politics

This pledge must surely be dependent on them following through with the pledge to build more homes alot quicker. If, hypothetically, they can really boost the building of homes then this reduction will hopefully not push up prices.

That said, I do not believe they can build the amount of houses they are saying and this will only push up house prices and rich buyers will benefit leaving the poorer families in the same place. Odd plan for me.
I don't believe this is even close to that well thought-through. As with the energy price cap there's one of two things going on:
  1. Milibland is a halfwit (not entirely unlikely)
  2. Milibland thinks we're all halfwits who are simple enough to be satiated by such empty policies

I'm fairly evenly split between the two options.
 
Anyone seen the defamatory bill board the Tories had up in London this week?. The one showing Salmond pick pocketing a city type's back pocket of cash. Is there no low the establishment will go to, in order to maintain power. I hope he consults a good defamation barrister. It clearly implies that he is dishonest and that he is a thief.
 
What is the Tory plan to make housing more affordable?
Not doing anything at all would make housing more affordable than Labour's latest plans.

I'm not sure there has to be a plan to make housing affordable - is there a Labour plan to make Quattroportes affordable? Or holidays in the Maldives affordable? Some things in life are just expensive.

It's also a little disingenuous to use the phrase "make housing affordable" - some housing is very affordable, some isn't. There are 3 bed houses near our Birmingham factory that go for a little over £125K. There are lots of affordable houses, people just want other ones to be as cheap as them.
 
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What is the Tory plan to make housing more affordable?

does it need to be?

I can't afford to buy a house (where I want to live), not because they are too expensive, it's because I don't have enough money, and there is only one person to blame for that, me
 
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The lie was that the information was presented in a definitive manner. Blair and Bush didn't argue that Saddam might have WMD, or that they could be in development, or any such thing. He had them, he would use them and therefore his regime was a clear threat to peace and thus an invasion was justified. Pretty simple really.

I know I said I was out of this debate but the above is spot on.
 
Ought to stop oversees investors buying property in the UK we are a small Island and it should go to people who live and work here(do not care if someone is a foreign national if they are working here they can buy a place)

A limit on the amount of properties a person can have to stop buy to let landlords stockpiling. I should declare at this point that I own 2 houses and a flat. Think people like me should have to pay a little more as homes should be for living. I did through luck well out of property but even if I sound two faced here, I think people using the property market to get rich are taking from the country.

My two pence worth.
 
Not sure if been discussed, but what do people think about the plan to give a 100k discount to Housing association tenants under Right to Buy? I think that's too generous to a demographic who are most likely getting paid generous benefits on my taxes. What about the people who have worked hard for a deposit in the first instance? Also, what about those private renters who are hard working and don't qualify for any benefits and are paying high rents(in London), maybe they should get some help too?
 
my opinion, as a private renter, is that it doesn't have to be fair to everyone, the government should rightly help those who cannot help themselves, those that can, or those that choose not to are on their own

that's the whole point isn't it, financial independence
 
I don't believe this is even close to that well thought-through. As with the energy price cap there's one of two things going on:
  1. Milibland is a halfwit (not entirely unlikely)
  2. Milibland thinks we're all halfwits who are simple enough to be satiated by such empty policies

I'm fairly evenly split between the two options.

From an economic perspective I agree, this report, by Labours own Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), sort of explains why it will increase prices rather than reduce them.

 
my opinion, as a private renter, is that it doesn't have to be fair to everyone, the government should rightly help those who cannot help themselves, those that can, or those that choose not to are on their own

that's the whole point isn't it, financial independence

I must say that's a very balanced and diplomatic fair point of view, not many private renters will take this view though. I was out on Friday and two mates are mortgage free, the other is a private renter and is livid considering that he has pay to huge sums without any assistance, albeit in a desirable area.
 
I must say that's a very balanced and diplomatic fair point of view, not many private renters will take this view though. I was out on Friday and two mates are mortgage free, the other is a private renter and is livid considering that he has pay to huge sums without any assistance, albeit in a desirable area.

then he needs to pull his finger out and earn enough money to get a deposit together, same as I do

I'm lazy, I like to spend time with my kids and I like nice things for the family, so I don't really save and only work as hard as I have to

it's all my own fault, and I've yet to meet anyone in the same position for whom
that isn't the case
 
My question, however, is why didn't they do it in 1991? Perfect excuse. Iraq invaded Kuwait, the international community, press, public would largely have not batted an eyelid if our forces went all the way to Baghdad then and toppled the Saddam regime. It was easily justifiable based on his actions. But we stopped and went home when his forces were out of Kuwait.

So I don't think the idea that the West has been itching to go into Iraq stands up as much as you may think, taking into account the first Gulf War and what happened there.

Rumsfeld et al wanted to go into Iraq and over-throw when Clinton bombed them in the late 90's (instead of just a bit of bombing). They were pushing for it then...and then a few years later, they saw the opportunity. I was most definitely in the works before 9/11 happened, but that terrible event was a gift for them to get it done. Not 'The West' but more specifically, a core element of the neo-conservative movement. The same people who want to go into Iran, if they can get the momentum behind it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century#Calls_for_regime_change_in_Iraq

Following perceived Iraqi unwillingness to co-operate with UN weapons inspections, core members of the PNAC including Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, R. James Woolsey, Elliot Abrams, Donald Rumsfeld, Robert Zoellick, and John Bolton were among the signatories of an open letter initiated by the PNAC to President Clinton calling for the removal of Saddam Hussein.[19][24] Portraying Saddam Hussein as a threat to the United States, its Middle East allies, and oil resources in the region, and emphasizing the potential danger of any Weapons of Mass Destruction under Iraq's control, the letter asserted that the United States could "no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections." Stating that American policy "cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council," the letter's signatories asserted that "the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf."
 
Rumsfeld et al wanted to go into Iraq and over-throw when Clinton bombed them in the late 90's (instead of just a bit of bombing). They were pushing for it then...and then a few years later, they saw the opportunity. I was most definitely in the works before 9/11 happened, but that terrible event was a gift for them to get it done. Not 'The West' but more specifically, a core element of the neo-conservative movement. The same people who want to go into Iran, if they can get the momentum behind it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century#Calls_for_regime_change_in_Iraq

Following perceived Iraqi unwillingness to co-operate with UN weapons inspections, core members of the PNAC including Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, R. James Woolsey, Elliot Abrams, Donald Rumsfeld, Robert Zoellick, and John Bolton were among the signatories of an open letter initiated by the PNAC to President Clinton calling for the removal of Saddam Hussein.[19][24] Portraying Saddam Hussein as a threat to the United States, its Middle East allies, and oil resources in the region, and emphasizing the potential danger of any Weapons of Mass Destruction under Iraq's control, the letter asserted that the United States could "no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections." Stating that American policy "cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council," the letter's signatories asserted that "the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf."

Yeah, but everyone knows there are quite a few loony tunes or hard-liners in any country's political establishment. I think the fact that at the time that pressure did not lead to action would demonstrate that America as a whole was not 'itching to go into Iraq'.
 
Not doing anything at all would make housing more affordable than Labour's latest plans.

I'm not sure there has to be a plan to make housing affordable - is there a Labour plan to make Quattroportes affordable? Or holidays in the Maldives affordable? Some things in life are just expensive.

It's also a little disingenuous to use the phrase "make housing affordable" - some housing is very affordable, some isn't. There are 3 bed houses near our Birmingham factory that go for a little over £125K. There are lots of affordable houses, people just want other ones to be as cheap as them.

I concur on brum prices. And would add it appears to have much going for it.
 
Yeah, but everyone knows there are quite a few loony tunes or hard-liners in any country's political establishment. I think the fact that at the time that pressure did not lead to action would demonstrate that America as a whole was not 'itching to go into Iraq'.
I think you need to adjust your tinfoil hat.

It was obviously a conspiracy concocted by the neo-cons and the lizard men as a part of their global takeover strategy.

If you don't agree then either they've fooled you or you're a part of it.
 
I do agree that in part there has been a desire to 'spread democracy' by the US, which has sometimes dictated foreign policy.

With regards to Iraq specifically, however, the motivation behind this I don't think has been properly thought through by some. Many like to believe it was to do with oil, money, power and all of that.

My question, however, is why didn't they do it in 1991? Perfect excuse. Iraq invaded Kuwait, the international community, press, public would largely have not batted an eyelid if our forces went all the way to Baghdad then and toppled the Saddam regime. It was easily justifiable based on his actions. But we stopped and went home when his forces were out of Kuwait.

So I don't think the idea that the West has been itching to go into Iraq stands up as much as you may think, taking into account the first Gulf War and what happened there.

Put simply...(and IMO)...

1) The hawks were not all in place. The political climate at the time wouldn't support it.
2) Hussein was still useful to us, precisely because his filthy and brutal regime kept extremist factions at bay.
3) Even if the Hawks had been in place, they could not have smoked that level of engagement past the public on the basis of Kuwait.

I would never be as tin-hat (this was written before Scara raised the reflective specter, though I admit to anticipating his mention of them at some point in this exchange :D:p) as to suggest 9/11 was created. That would be an insult to those who lost lives in that horror. But I do believe that it presented an opportunity for some people...
 
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Yeah, but everyone knows there are quite a few loony tunes or hard-liners in any country's political establishment. I think the fact that at the time that pressure did not lead to action would demonstrate that America as a whole was not 'itching to go into Iraq'.

The hardliners who wanted to go into Iraq then ended up as Vice President and the Secretary of Defense in the Bush administration (and I forget what Paul Wolfowitz became, but he was in that administration too). The point is, the thinking of the (eventual) decision makers was pretty set on toppling Saddam Hussein before 9/11 occurred, this is indisputable. So the invasion of Iraq was not a knee-jerk response to 9/11 happening, that's all I'm saying. That event just gave them a very good launchpad for something that they wanted to do anyway.
 
From memory, I'm not sure it was presented in a definitive manner, in that I don't think it was claimed he did have them, as in it was not in doubt. I do think that out of date or unreliable intelligence was presented as 'PR' for justification. I think this was the biggest mistake from a PR perspective. They didn't need to present Iraq as a present threat. The justification for the war was the non-compliance with the cease-fire arrangements from the first Gulf War AND the context of a new middle-eastern threat to Western nation's national security. Not sure why they felt the need to dress up the justification any more than that, but they did. The intelligence should have remained classified, it was unreliable, in that it was based on 1990's Iraqi military capability and then a lot of guess work based on worst-case scenarios of military advancement. The actual situation we found when we went into Iraq was that Iraqi military capability had actually regressed since the first Gulf War.

Anyway, I still don't buy that presentation of what your intelligence agencies are telling you is a lie. I believe that the UK government at the time (i.e. Blair) acted in good faith based on the intelligence presented. I believe he believed in the intelligence, or at least that the threat assessment needed addressing. He will have known that the intelligence would have been classified as potentially unreliable (that is if they were using the national intelligence model). No intelligence is 100%, even reliable intelligence. Intelligence does not equal evidence.

I go back to my people-trafficking raid scenario by way of comparison. You are now aware that terrorist organisations that you have not been monitoring and have no idea of their sphere of influence, that are based in the region are actively and successfully targeting Western civilian targets. You also know that you have a regime within that area that had an intention to develop WMD's and long-range delivery capability. You also know that for a number of years, they've been refusing access to UN weapon's inspectors, therefore ANYTHING could be going on in Iraq in terms of the existence or non-existence of WMD and delivery capability. So what do you do about it?

My view is that even if the Saddam regime had these weapons or were developing them, the chance of extremists successfully operating in Iraq under his regime's noses to any extent was low, and the chances of any existing falling into their hands was probably low also. If I was Blair, i'd have told the Americans that we need to increase our intelligence in the middle east and initiate covert operations by security services in order to pin-point and nail down the threat and re-assess after a year or two.

Bad call to go balls-deep for regime-change straight away. It was undoubtedly a bad call by Blair. But was he a warmonger itching for invasion and willing to lie and deceive to get there? I really don't think so.



Sorry mate, legality does not rest with what the war was called. You're talking about moral obligations of government in justifying their actions to the people they serve again. Information is always manipulated. But it was manipulated by both sides of the argument.

For example, it has become accepted public opinion that the war on Iraq was illegal and based on lies by government. I find this quite interesting as this was largely an opinion created by mainstream British press. The BBC in particular seemed to completely disregard their stated impartiality when it came to discussing the war on Iraq. Countless people were wheeled out to state that the war on Iraq was illegal. But these people vary rarely had any legal training. I'm talking people like George Galloway and celebrities such as Esther Ranson and Bono! Unbelievable.

There was a determined effort by some mainstream media outlets to undermine public support for the Iraq war at every opportunity. Interestingly, the only people that were PROVEN to have outright lied about what was going on in Iraq was the Daily Mirror, who FABRICATED a story about British troops abusing Iraqi prisoners of war, using fake photographs. I don't know if you remember, but Piers Morgan was forced to resign as editor based on this VERY story and his decision to allow it to be run without giving it proper scrutiny.

Yet it is still accepted that our government lied to us, and that the anti-war media were merely holding them to account with genuine and above-board motivations and practices.

Again, i'd point out I was against the Iraq war, but not for reasons of legality, but for reasons of the consequences for the region's stability by removing a dictator like Saddam without a plan of action for the aftermath.

All i'd say is that those that put forward the argument of illegality and deception in the British press, were the only ones PROVEN to have deceived anyone! So do your own research on an issue, and make your own mind up! That's the moral for me.


Yes, I remember it well. They did not fabricate the story,the photos supplied to them was fabricated.
It was a shame Piers Morgan got duped by the photo; the story, as I remember, held up. But the photo was staged to illustrate the story and he went for it. A shame. You will excuse me a good-spirited chuckle at the comment about Morgan not giving the story 'proper scrutiny' given the lack of proper scrutiny given the 'intelligence' supplied.

What I won't have mate, is this 'the press were the only ones proven to have lied'...simply not true. I could dig up many links, here's one just for starters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3056626.stm

I think your final point is perhaps the most salient. Legality, as you well know, can be debated and counter debated (depending on the perspective of argument, context and depth of knowledge of the law) for a long, long time. For me, with the many many many tens of thousands of words read on this topic since it's first occurrence, it is my opinion that there was willful manipulation of information specifically for the benefit of some.
 
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