Politics, politics, politics

[scaramanga]

That all sounds well and good until you realise the Academy policy was vociferously attacked by Tory councils who couldn't be described as 'lefty councils' so really that only shows how out of touch the Tory Government are, even with their core support base.

Nobody likes losing control of something. I would expect all councils to fight losing any power they have.

Unless of course you think Tory councils are also overreaching and overspending too.

I can't speak for all of them individually but in my experience, yes. It's in the nature of the kind of person that wants to work in a job like that.

Oh and do Local councils overreach/overspend more than more central Government departments?

Certainly more than a Conservative one I'd say. Gordon Brown would probably run them pretty close.

On running schools for profit, that can only lead to problems as introducing a 'race to the bottom' or an 'easyjet/ryanair' business model in education will lead to poor general education overall (for those who cannot pay for the private education system). There are some public services where 'profit making' shouldn't be the number one goal in managing imo and i beleive Education is at the top of that list.
Running schools/education to break even over time should be a target imo though

That's an overly simplistic view of markets IMO, you're only considering one pressure - cost. You also need to consider the loss of customers that a low quality product will cause.

I've only ever flown either of those airlines once and I never will again. Equally, I wouldn't expect any discerning parent to send their child to an Easyjet/Ryanair school.

The only reason those companies have been able to do what they do is the rapid expansion of a customer base. People who previously flew Virgin and BA aren't the ones flying Easyjet, it's the people who would otherwise have been on a bus or a train. That market increase simply isn't there for schools because there is no worse option like a bus or a train to upgrade from.

So whilst there will be a competitive advantage to being cheaper, there will be an equal pressure to be better than the rest. I would expect some schools to drill down costs to the point of poor service but I'd expect them to lose students very quickly to those providing a better service.

 

[We are Tottenham]

So last week amongst the elections the Government reversed the plan to automatically force ALL schools to be academies.
Another interesting U-turn.
Also, proof the government is out of touch with even their Tory grass-roots Councils (it was their objections that led to the reverse, rather than what Teachers and Academics were saying).
No doubt another plan to sell-off Education to the highest bidder will be brought back in due course anyway

The U Turns....

Cameron doesn't,t want to upset any possible remain voters does he!


A must see.Unfortunately will not even Beeb bias..or government funds!


www.brexitthemovie.com

 

[Grays_1890]

I hate the way this is being played out.

I would have more respect for politicians if they came out and said "look there are pros for leaving but ultimately its in our interests to stay in". This whole cut and dry fight that is being fought "its disaster if we stay" "its disaster if we leave" isnt doing the public any favors

 

[the dza]

I hate the way this is being played out.

I would have more respect for politicians if they came out and said "look there are pros for leaving but ultimately its in our interests to stay in". This whole cut and dry fight that is being fought "its disaster if we stay" "its disaster if we leave" isnt doing the public any favors

This has been the position of Corbyn and McDonnell in the Labour Party, though I'm sure they both wouldn't be too upset if we voted to leave either.

I think Johnson would have been better adopting a similar position. Instead, he's gambling on something he doesn't really believe in (Brexit) in order to position himself as the next Tory leader. Unfortunately, this has led to Johnson and Cameron one-upping eachother in the hyperbole stakes and a lack of serious debate.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I think it's best to remain in overall. I think unity with our neighbours is a net positive.

 

[parklane1]

You can not really get good information from Cameron and his cronies, instead all we get is a lot of scare story's about what they say might happen if we leave. You can always tell if they have a GHod case or not because if they had they would say what we gain from staying in instead all we get is negatives. Scare story's is all they are spouting at the moment.

 

[scaramanga]

You can not really get good information from Cameron and his cronies, instead all we get is a lot of scare story's about what they say might happen if we leave. You can always tell if they have a GHod case or not because if they had they would say what we gain from staying in instead all we get is negatives. Scare story's is all they are spouting at the moment.

There's no place for party bias here - both sides have been as bad as each other in this.

Comrade beardyclam's opinion is only less alarmist because he doesn't actually believe the position he's required to currently hold. The only person who's been talking honestly in all of this (and I really hate having to say it) is that clown shoe Farage and that's only because this is his one policy and he can hold a steady view on it.

 

[scaramanga]

In other news I've rarely seen a picture as satisfying as those in the news today of all the anti-fracking departs crying and consoling each other.

 

[parklane1]

There's no place for party bias here - both sides have been as bad as each other in this.

Comrade beardyclam's opinion is only less alarmist because he doesn't actually believe the position he's required to currently hold. The only person who's been talking honestly in all of this (and I really hate having to say it) is that clown shoe Farage and that's only because this is his one policy and he can hold a steady view on it.

As I have said many times before I have no love for either party however everyday we have scare storys from Cameron and his cronies instead of reasons why we should stay in, negative instead of positive reasons usually means you do not have a lot going for you.

I do believe that the vote will be to stay in as most voters have no real idea or understand the complexities of the whole issue.
And we all know that most voters are

 

[StephenH]

Every time 'Dodgy Dave' opens his mouth I want vote leave
The Boris opens his fizzog and I want to vote stay.
ATM I'm sliding to the leave side!

 

[the dza]

I hope there is a clear winner, whatever the outcome. Really don't want this to be a close call.

 

[monkeybarry]

Every time 'Dodgy Dave' opens his mouth I want vote leave
The Boris opens his fizzog and I want to vote stay.
ATM I'm sliding to the leave side!

Every time they open their mouths I want the Tories to leave

How about a nice 51/49% vote for staying in.
Trigger a general election for 6months time and let the parties fragment so we have a nice, Scandinavian style, multi coalition house.

 

[LutonSpurs]

You guys need to stop mixing religion in the politics thread. It really isn't very secular.

 

[Grays_1890]

Anyone watch the BBC documentary on East London last night?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Anyone watch the BBC documentary on East London last night?

I did...very interesting as i know that area well (i grew up in the Northern edge of Newham..)

 

[Grays_1890]

I did...very interesting as i know that area well (i grew up in the Northern edge of Newham..)

Its caused abit of a backlash, read today that people are not happy with the title of the program, especially as its the BBC.

It did highlight alot of cultural integration points that I had not thought of, I think the west indian guy was right saying integration is good but at the minute there is no integration as everyone just hunts in packs which is true really.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Its caused abit of a backlash, read today that people are not happy with the title of the program, especially as its the BBC.

It did highlight alot of cultural integration points that I had not thought of, I think the west indian guy was right saying integration is good but at the minute there is no integration as everyone just hunts in packs which is true really.

I can't remember the title: what was it again?

I think for me, it highlighted that there will always be an issue of integration between people 'already present/indigenous' and 'new arrivals/migrant/alien'.

However, there seems there will be a hierarchy of likely 'acceptance', i.e. how long the 'new arrival/migrant/alien' themselves become the 'indigenous/local' group over time:

1) different country of origin but same 'race' (i.e. same skin colour) AND same mother language and likely to have same religion (e.g. Scottish, Irish, Aussie, USA etc)
2) different country of origin but same 'race' (i.e. same skin colour) but different mother language and likely to have same religion (e.g. Eastern European, Italian, Portuguese etc)
3) different country of origin but same 'race' (i.e. same skin colour) but different mother language and different religion (e.g. Jews from Eastern Europe, Muslims from Albania, Kosovo etc)
4) different country of origin and different 'race' (i.e. different skin colour) AND same language (mostly) and likely to have same religion (e.g. Caribbean, African other in the old Commonwealth who spoke English)
5) different country of origin and different 'race' (i.e. different skin colour) but different mother language and not same religion (e.g. Hindu Indian, Muslim Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi)

I think group 1 are assimilated/integrated the quickest whilst groups 4 and esp 5 take the longest time to be assimilated/integrated; some would say they often never do because of the different skin colour and often especially the combination of that with a different religion...
Balance of numbers i guess is always key: It was interesting that the mixed-race West Indian guy had seen his West Indian dad be labelled as an 'outsider' due to his colour and then he himself effectively label the newer settlers in the area who were mostly Indian/Pakistani/Bangaldeshi Muslims as 'outsiders'; i suspect he would have been less likely to do so if their religion was also Christian.

Fascinating doc i felt

 

[Grays_1890]

It was interesting that the mixed-race West Indian guy had seen his West Indian dad be labelled as an 'outsider' due to his colour and then he himself effectively label the newer settlers in the area who were mostly Indian/Pakistani/Bangaldeshi Muslims as 'outsiders'; i suspect he would have been less likely to do so if their religion was also Christian.

Fascinating doc i felt

Thats the part I found the most fascinating.

It is amazing how quickly that turn around has been, the stretch from Aldgate to Barking has gone 360 since WW2

 

[We are Tottenham]

he's gambling on something he doesn't really believe in (Brexit) in order to position himself as the next Tory leader.

Have you spoken to Borris to ask him if he really believes Europe Parliament is OK.

This is so important, I cannot believe a Politician of his standing is supporting Brexit just because
it supports his political career aims.
Mind you, it may be an excuse for the stay in camp to say that as an excuse for such a brilliant politician not agreeing with them.

 

[glorygloryeze]

That's an overly simplistic view of markets IMO, you're only considering one pressure - cost. You also need to consider the loss of customers that a low quality product will cause.

I've only ever flown either of those airlines once and I never will again. Equally, I wouldn't expect any discerning parent to send their child to an Easyjet/Ryanair school.

The only reason those companies have been able to do what they do is the rapid expansion of a customer base. People who previously flew Virgin and BA aren't the ones flying Easyjet, it's the people who would otherwise have been on a bus or a train. That market increase simply isn't there for schools because there is no worse option like a bus or a train to upgrade from.

So whilst there will be a competitive advantage to being cheaper, there will be an equal pressure to be better than the rest. I would expect some schools to drill down costs to the point of poor service but I'd expect them to lose students very quickly to those providing a better service.

See this is the problem with the comparison: you cannot compare several years of judging whether a child's education is 'good', 'value for money' etc with a flight on Easjet/BA etc.
When you fly it is a finite experience that can be judged within a few hours or a day at most. An education cannot.
The flying experience can be changed, 'upgraded' straight away based on feedback: better seats, nicer food, better landing, better terminal etc.

The quality of a child's education takes far longer to judge; yes, GCSE and other exams at the end of fixed education periods are usually the most consistent barometer but even they takes years to come to fruition and how do you judge an education experience up to that point? How do you especially judge the quality of education at primary school level? Plus the teachers and headteachers that run them? Are they automatically better if 'market forces' takes over? Will that effect their intake and if in one or two particlar years a whole load of 'bad pupil's are admitted who prove a challenge and perhap take some resources away from actual teaching?

In the independent sector, the 'riff-raff' factor is usually taken away and that obviously helps things (especially for those who don't like mixing with the 'hoi-polloi' or the 'great unwashed', probably the main reason for going to such schools for a sizable chunk). But even in the Independent schooling sector: does higher fee automatically equal 'better quality' of education? I mean if one private school charges double another does that automatically mean the school that charges double provides twice the quality?

This is the crux of defining 'better service' in terms of the education system at large: it is difficult to marry it up totally with 'cost' and the experience has so many factors outside of cost (such as location, demographics/culture of intake, nursery schooling beforehand, the school leadership, the motivation/commitment of staff etc) that almost make 'cost' over the lifetime of the education process irrelevant. Also, most people would rather choose an education institution once or twice in a lifetime at most. Choosing one every year (unlike changing your airline) is not ideal (or even feasible for most really).

Creating a system that is 'good' for most children (whilst also allowing the independent sector to co-exist peacefully for those who want or need that option) is the ideal and a good strong network forged between Government, Academics and National/International Corporate/Industrial leaders is more likely to deliver that than just one of those groups working in isolation.
Academies in the long run put mainly the third group in that list in sole command and for me that will lead to a major inbalance long-term.

 

[Grays_1890]

Have you spoken to Borris to ask him if he really believes Europe Parliament is OK.

This is so important, I cannot believe a Politician of his standing is supporting Brexit just because
it supports his political career aims.
Mind you, it may be an excuse for the stay in camp to say that as an excuse for such a brilliant politician not agreeing with them.

I wouldn't bet on it, would you?

What does it affect him should we stay or leave? He is a rich man and has a career of 6 figure after dinner speaking ahead.

Or the flip is he becomes the next PM?

Hardly agonizing with his choice ey?