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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

I wasn't commenting on your opinion....just the definitive immediacy of it all.
The problem is, it was not immediate.

People knew months/years ago Labour would win, not because they had any plan, but just because they were not the other lot.

That is not a good thing to get into power with. You got into power, not bevauae you're good, but because the otherside collapsed.

This interview with Adam Curtis was rather interesting and his a lot of nails on the head.

 
Just that bigots should shut up. Tennant has a trans kid, so takes particular offence to some of her abuse
Can you singal out and post here what comments were offensive so we can decide if they are actually offensive. A lot of times people say they are offended but actually they seem to use that phrase as a way of stopping someone talking if they don't like that person.

Think JK Rosling has suffered with that.
 
It isn't The Daily Mail, The Express and The Telegraph I'm talking about, it's the OBR, international ratings agencies and international markets.

And it's not about wealthy people being taxed whatsoever:
- it's about hitting businesses, the vast majority of which are SMEs, with an increase in employers NI contributions and increase in minimum wage. Rachel Reeves herself and Darren Jones, Chief Secretary to The Treasury have accepted these changes will hit workers and result in lower wage rises across the board.
- It's also about creating a new definition of public sector debt just before the budget, in order to try and free yourself fron your own self imposed fiscal rules. This new metric wasn't well understood by analysts and hasn't been incorporated accurately into models. The OBR have had to revise their initial projections of government debt forecasts already due to an error in their initial analytical model. This revision means that the government have over 15 billion less headroom for investment related borrowing than they expected based on the OBR's initial analysis.
- The markets are jittery as a result as they see a government that has committed to a huge increase in borrowing, which they calculate will be paid for by growth in tax earnings over the next 5 years, but business confidence has fallen out of its arse over the last few weeks and most analysts are revising growth forecasts down - I.e. they think that Raxhel Reeves has just created a far bigger potential hole than any that she inherited and because the government are asking everyone to carry out calculations based on new metrics and definitions they've only just come up with, there is now a lot of uncertainty associated with UK economic projections or where Labour will land our economy at the end of the 5 year term.
Markets are where you can the true account of where we are. Not quite liz truss levels but they were well and truly spooked.


Despite voting for Labour I don't think the financial situation is as dire as they say.
 
Markets are where you can the true account of where we are. Not quite liz truss levels but they were well and truly spooked.


Despite voting for Labour I don't think the financial situation is as dire as they say.
Exactly. The markets have effectively rated each person in charge as follows:
- Sunak/Hunt policies: we quire like this, more of the same please
- Starmer/Reeves: we don't like this, we wouldn't recommend investing any more than you need to in the UK.
- Truss/Kwateng: holy brick, get your money out while you still can.

Just because it isn't as bad as the bottom doesn't mean that international markets aren't clearly pooling around the idea that the British people made a big mistake at the last election.
 
Can you singal out and post here what comments were offensive so we can decide if they are actually offensive. A lot of times people say they are offended but actually they seem to use that phrase as a way of stopping someone talking if they don't like that person.

Think JK Rosling has suffered with that.
JK rowling was attacked because she built a shelter for women who had been abused, beaten etc

Then the Trans activistist started screaming that they should be allowed in, completely ignoring what the place was for.

She has been attacked ever since and all the trans acrivists have done is entrench her views.
 
But in all honesty pales in significance in what the other mob did in their last 6 years let alone the 14, its incomparable mate
Agree, however this mob have only been in power for 3 months, christ knows what they'll get up to in 6 years. At least they're planning to give value for money... Oh wait!


:rolleyes:

Boris would literally get caught breaking the law 14 times, they gave millions away to their mates and if Boris shat in peoples gardens they would be thanking him for fertiliser rather than deal with it, wasn't till his own party turned round and said "stone me this blokes a cnut" that anything happened.
Bozo the clown is long gone thank fudge.

Winter fuel is means tested and nowhere near as bad as people make out, the suits are a bad look but nowhere near anything of the magnitude being made out, the proof will be in the eating with the budget


(Starmer leaving would not change that) and not sure the reference to Lammy?
Lammy is a clown.
 
It isn't The Daily Mail, The Express and The Telegraph I'm talking about, it's the OBR, international ratings agencies and international markets.

And it's not about wealthy people being taxed whatsoever:
- it's about hitting businesses, the vast majority of which are SMEs, with an increase in employers NI contributions and increase in minimum wage. Rachel Reeves herself and Darren Jones, Chief Secretary to The Treasury have accepted these changes will hit workers and result in lower wage rises across the board.
- It's also about creating a new definition of public sector debt just before the budget, in order to try and free yourself fron your own self imposed fiscal rules. This new metric wasn't well understood by analysts and hasn't been incorporated accurately into models. The OBR have had to revise their initial projections of government debt forecasts already due to an error in their initial analytical model. This revision means that the government have over 15 billion less headroom for investment related borrowing than they expected based on the OBR's initial analysis.
- The markets are jittery as a result as they see a government that has committed to a huge increase in borrowing, which they calculate will be paid for by growth in tax earnings over the next 5 years, but business confidence has fallen out of its arse over the last few weeks and most analysts are revising growth forecasts down - I.e. they think that Raxhel Reeves has just created a far bigger potential hole than any that she inherited and because the government are asking everyone to carry out calculations based on new metrics and definitions they've only just come up with, there is now a lot of uncertainty associated with UK economic projections or where Labour will land our economy at the end of the 5 year term.
I'm not a supporter of any party, but having followed this thread for a few years I can say with confidence had the Tories delivered an identical budget posters on here would not be painting such a picture of a 'fair' budget.

They haven't been in power for 5 minutes and already made several fudge ups, and now Reeves has said she was wrong to say taxes wouldn't increase during the campaign (I wonder why she would have painted that lovely picture at the time)- and there was me thinking it was just the Tories who lied.

The fact are they are all as bad as each other and the rate they are going won't be in power for long at all....
 
I'm not a supporter of any party, but having followed this thread for a few years I can say with confidence had the Tories delivered an identical budget posters on here would not be painting such a picture of a 'fair' budget.

They haven't been in power for 5 minutes and already made several fudge ups, and now Reeves has said she was wrong to say taxes wouldn't increase during the campaign (I wonder why she would have painted that lovely picture at the time)- and there was me thinking it was just the Tories who lied.

The fact are they are all as bad as each other and the rate they are going won't be in power for long at all....
I've voted for both tory and Labour in the past and I didn't vote in the last election. I find that those that lean towards a particular party or ideology let's say often struggle to see the wood for the trees when it comes to critiquing their preferred party.

Yes, it's early days, but I don't think you could look at the first few months from a neutral standpoint as being anything other than a complete and total s*** show.

And that's nothing to do with what they've inherited or all the other whataboutery anyone wants to engage in, it's about acting with complete contempt for the British public, it's about basic "hygiene" standards of proof reading press releases, policy announcements, making sure people are clear on the message and doing some bog-standard basic impact-analysis on your policy proposals.

Now the tories have been reduced to an irrelevance, attention has turned to Starmer, his top team and his advisors. Now "we aren't the tories" isn't good enough and with that veneer whipped away the whole thing just absolutely reeks of incompetence, arrogance and duplicity.
 
Let me counter that by asking if you realise that there are other avenues to achieve the 'net effect' of 'Scandinavian capitalism' beyond linking their success to 'population size' when it is clear that there is a societal belief and attitude in their system?

The basic difference in the model, is that Denmark (as an example) believes that all its citizens have equal access to the sort of services which underpin a society (education, healthcare, housing) as part of a belief in there being a universal right to these regardless of their social or fiscal situations. There is a collective buy-in, not only on that belief, but also on the fact that society benefits when this is the model. IF that is the prevailing attitude behind a society's approach, I'd counter that whether you have 10 or 100 million people, the model can be scaled to work. It's about investing in a society, not an individual.

The biggest difference is that somewhere along the line (most probably the Thatcher era) the whole concept of social services somehow became semi-stigmatised (via avenues ranging from 'encouraging laziness' to a projection of it almost being a 'shameful' thing in some instances).

...with regards to your hospital analogy, my thought is that if we stopped paying bricky second-party contractors to execute important services, and if we encouraged and educated people about the necessity of preventative care from an early age, then you wouldn't need such reactive (and potentially over-expensive, open to abusive costs) hospital care.

Long conversation.

I want to chime in here about Denmark because from everything I've read they're probably more hostile towards immigrants than almost any other country in Europe, even their equivalent of Labour follow along the same lines. From your posts it would go against your views on this (I think) - https://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-migration-eu-parliament-election-mette-frederiksen/

In Scandinavia in general tax rates are also far higher on everyone, take Sweden for example everyone pays tax on the first £43K of 32% with some exemptions/a small personal so you'd need to be prepared for the lowest earners to also pay significantly more including those on minimum wage https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/sweden/individual/taxes-on-personal-income
 
Good, realistic and grown-up budget, and very well delivered. Sunak ending his days in a prominent political position looking like an angry, entitled fool. Obviously very upset about the non-dom changes.

Certainly represents a change in direction but the net effect is that growth will basically be the same after 5 years and living standards will barely increase. Early days but not a great legacy if that's the result in a few years.
 
Certainly represents a change in direction but the net effect is that growth will basically be the same after 5 years and living standards will barely increase. Early days but not a great legacy if that's the result in a few years.

If fewer people get cancer diagnoses in A&E, and there are no school buildings collapsing, living standards will have improved.
 
If fewer people get cancer diagnoses in A&E, and there are no school buildings collapsing, living standards will have improved.
Any uplift in NHS funding will basically be paying for the large pay deals they've agreed with the unions for NHS staff and won't address any structure issues in the service over the next five years. Similarly, any education budget uplift will be eaten by the pay deals agreed and the one unions are still asking for, for 24/25 to prevent strike action. Labour aren't putting forward any proposals to upgrade the waste water infrastructure - so there won't be less s*** in the sea either.
 
I want to chime in here about Denmark because from everything I've read they're probably more hostile towards immigrants than almost any other country in Europe, even their equivalent of Labour follow along the same lines. From your posts it would go against your views on this (I think) - https://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-migration-eu-parliament-election-mette-frederiksen/

In Scandinavia in general tax rates are also far higher on everyone, take Sweden for example everyone pays tax on the first £43K of 32% with some exemptions/a small personal so you'd need to be prepared for the lowest earners to also pay significantly more including those on minimum wage https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/sweden/individual/taxes-on-personal-income
A little talked about stat about how "unfair" our tax system is, is how many people in this country don't pay income tax at all.

In fact, Labour's stance on keeping the freeze on tax free allowance us essentially a direct "tax on working people" as it is due to bring millions into the income tax threshold over the next 5 years and also bring many more into the high-earners threshold. They're counting on thar additional tax revenue as part of their calculations.
 
I want to chime in here about Denmark because from everything I've read they're probably more hostile towards immigrants than almost any other country in Europe, even their equivalent of Labour follow along the same lines. From your posts it would go against your views on this (I think) - https://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-migration-eu-parliament-election-mette-frederiksen/

In Scandinavia in general tax rates are also far higher on everyone, take Sweden for example everyone pays tax on the first £43K of 32% with some exemptions/a small personal so you'd need to be prepared for the lowest earners to also pay significantly more including those on minimum wage https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/sweden/individual/taxes-on-personal-income


Slightly off on a tangent.
Maybe I am not remembering correctly but it doesn’t seem that long ago that Scandinavian countries were reportedly among the highest for both suicide and alcohol abuse.
Now they are held up as almost utopian paradises that we should be working towards.
Wonder when the switch came.
 
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