Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[glorygloryeze]

Under Cameron

Really?
Ok, when they the Tories stop being in the 'middle ground' and 'liberal' in your eyes?

 

[SkipRat]

I'm not involved in it, I don't vote as there's no one I believe in leader wise they are all uninspiring. But it seems they have voted Labour purely for being on the Tories out bandwagon, only for them to now realise what the Labour policies are and not agree with them which is their own fault for not properly looking into.

Labour deserve the opportunity as I agree Tories have fudged up - but I don't believe they will fare any better, they have as many clowns as the Tories do and will just find different ways of making a mess of things. Indeed prisons are full, Labours' solution is to release criminals early and surprise surprise a load of these criminals are already back in prison It's always easier being the party not in power critical of governments every move, I look at Starmer and the rest of his clan and they do not inspire me to make real and positive change in the slightest.....

Starmer got less votes than Corbyn.

 

[Baleforce]

Really?
Ok, when they the Tories stop being in the 'middle ground' and 'liberal' in your eyes?

When they started chasing UKIP votes.

 

[glorygloryeze]

When they started chasing UKIP votes.

When did that happen? And is that the only thing that in your eyes stopped them being 'liberal' or in the 'middle ground'?

 

[Baleforce]

When did that happen? And is that the only thing that in your eyes stopped them being 'liberal' or in the 'middle ground'?

Near the end of Mays time I’d guess.

I’m not suggesting they were liberal across the board, but in the issues that matter to me, they were in my zone, now they have moved massively to the right on things I care about.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Near the end of Mays time I’d guess.

I’m not suggesting they were liberal across the board, but in the issues that matter to me, they were in my zone, now they have moved massively to the right on things I care about.

Ok. What are the things you care about in this regard?

 

[Baleforce]

Ok. What are the things you care about in this regard?

Equal rights for minorities mainly.

 

[SkipRat]

The point is that if it impinges on other people in an unlawful way, it will get dealt with.
That is FGM is not welcome here and if anyone is caught doing it they get dealt with.
If anyone tries to impose Sharia Law that gets dealt with.

Brits in Spain, Greece etc getting drunk and behaving badly in public don't represent the local culture in those countries and get dealt with as necessary in the same way if they cross certain legal lines etc

There is a difference between not liking some aspects of another 'culture' and someone from another 'culture' engaging in behaviours that are illegal (as FGM is)

That is not the point at all and it is quite possible to impinge on things without breaking the law.

And it's not even about imposing it, would rather not have people promoting it.

Look at Bately school, that is not exactly fitting in with British values. Being able to mock and criticise religion has helped keep the church grounded for hundreds of years. Freedom of speech. Harassing a teacher out of a job. Even Israel, can't be spoken about openly by politicians, and ever growing is the list of things that are considered anti-Semitic, including legitimate criticism.

 

[glorygloryeze]

That is not the point at all and it is quite possible to impinge on things without breaking the law.

Ok. Who is impinging what? Can you give examples?

And it's not even about imposing it, would rather not have people promoting it.

Who is promoting what? FGM? Sharia Law? Who promotes that?

Look at Bately school, that is not exactly fitting in with British values. Being able to mock and criticise religion has helped keep the church grounded for hundreds of years. Freedom of speech. Harassing a teacher out of a job. Even Israel, can't be spoken about openly by politicians, and ever growing, is more things that are considered anti-Semitic.

What's happening at Bately school? I don't k ow anything about that so i'm interested to know what you're referring to.

Certainly i agree that Religious zealots are often against freedom of speech, and i certainly agree with you about how anyone who criticises Israel gets the "anti-semetic" smear in spades

 

[glorygloryeze]

Equal rights for minorities mainly.

Ok, so when did the Tories change on this front?

 

[Baleforce]

Ok, so when did the Tories change on this front?

When they started going after trans people and immigrants.

 

[Robspur12]

I'm not involved in it, I don't vote as there's no one I believe in leader wise they are all uninspiring. But it seems they have voted Labour purely for being on the Tories out bandwagon, only for them to now realise what the Labour policies are and not agree with them which is their own fault for not properly looking into.

Labour deserve the opportunity as I agree Tories have fudged up - but I don't believe they will fare any better, they have as many clowns as the Tories do and will just find different ways of making a mess of things. Indeed prisons are full, Labours' solution is to release criminals early and surprise surprise a load of these criminals are already back in prison It's always easier being the party not in power critical of governments every move, I look at Starmer and the rest of his clan and they do not inspire me to make real and positive change in the slightest.....

That's a depressing view mate sorry you feel that way. But Labour governments or left leaning governments have, over the years, made mistakes for sure but have still delivered real progressive societal milestones; state pensions, NHS, welfare state, rebuilding after the war, free travel for pensioners, peace in Northern Ireland, national minimum wage, a slew of equal opps legislation etc etc. That's why I vote for them and still believe they will do ok this time if we give them time. I always prefer progressive governments to conservative ones. Let's see how they go but tbh the Tories have left them a toxic legacy.

Edit: incidentally the idea of early prisoner release belonged to Alex Chalk ( one of the better Tories) the previous government's justice secretary. It was needed to free up space in prisons that were already almost full. The prison system took the brunt of austerity unfortunately.

 

[Kompakted]

She wants to put 10% of the civil service in prison.

She’s against same sex marriage.

She’s against trans rights.

She’s against cultural equality.

I mean I don't actually think Bedenoch would make a good leader for the Tories, but here's a conundrum for you: you don't like her partly because she's against cultural equality. Nigerian culture is generally pretty conservative, something which has likely heavily influenced the views you've cited and therefore are you not against cultural equality in some sense, even if only terms of your own thought process?

You don't need to answer the question BTW. I just find that the whole "equality" thing tends to eat itself if left to its own devices and this is a prime example.

 

[Kompakted]

When they started going after trans people and immigrants.

Politicians will always follow the winds of strong public opinion. Once it became clear that immigration levels, unisex toilets and 8 year olds being offered irreversible hormone therapy if they decide they want to dress up as the opposite sex had reached a tipping point of public opinion, politicians of all colours have had to fall into line. That's also fundamentally how democracy works.

 

[Baleforce]

I mean I don't actually think Bedenoch would make a good leader for the Tories, but here's a conundrum for you: you don't like her partly because she's against cultural equality. Nigerian culture is generally pretty conservative, something which has likely heavily influenced the views you've cited and therefore are you not against cultural equality in some sense, even if only terms of your own thought process?

You don't need to answer the question BTW. I just find that the whole "equality" thing tends to eat itself if left to its own devices and this is a prime example.

From Badenochs comments, I believe she thinks certain people are worth less because of where they grew up.

I disagree with that.

I want equality for all, let everybody live in my liberal utopia, don’t gatekeep or other based on accidents of logistics.

 

[Kompakted]

From Badenochs comments, I believe she thinks certain people are worth less because of where they grew up.

I disagree with that.

I want equality for all, let everybody live in my liberal utopia, don’t gatekeep or other based on accidents of logistics.

However we have increasing numbers of illiberal people moving to this country with deeply deeply conservative views, who regard women as second class citizens, marry their daughters off via arranged marriage and regard homosexuality as a sin. How does "everyone's equally welcome here" not end up eating itself in that context?

 

[Baleforce]

Politicians will always follow the winds of strong public opinion. Once it became clear that immigration levels, unisex toilets and 8 year olds being offered irreversible hormone therapy if they decide they want to dress up as the opposite sex had reached a tipping point of public opinion, politicians of all colours have had to fall into line. That's also fundamentally how democracy works.

Its a false perception of immigration levels and unisex toilets that tipped the balance, not the actual facts.

Some politicians have jumped on these issues to use them as a wedge, pushing false narratives to anger the public.

That’s where the issue is, it’s not how democracy works, it’s how populism works, attack small marginal groups and claim you have a simple solution.

 

[Baleforce]

However we have increasing numbers of illiberal people moving to this country with deeply deeply conservative views, who regard women as second class citizens, marry their daughters off via arranged marriage and regard homosexuality as a sin. How does "everyone's equally welcome here" not end up eating itself in that context?

Osmosis.

 

[Kompakted]

Its a false perception of immigration levels and unisex toilets that tipped the balance, not the actual facts.

Some politicians have jumped on these issues to use them as a wedge, pushing false narratives to anger the public.

That’s where the issue is, it’s not how democracy works, it’s how populism works, attack small marginal groups and claim you have a simple solution.

I don't think it is a false perception, I think it's very much an actual perception. In the case of unisex toilets, most people absolutely don't want them, but have either had them forced upon them or know people that have. What's the false perception in having to use a unisex toilet at, say, your workplace and not feeling comfortable in doing so?

In terms of immigration, the vast majority of the major problems we face, from pollution/emissions, to the NHS capacity, housing crisis, even to the fact that are sewer systems are now at capacity and constantly have to be discharged into rivers and seas to prevent back-up into people's homes - all of these are down to unsustainable population growth, which given the birth rate is dying on its arse is almost entirely currently down to levels of immigration.

And not only that, the rate of immigration has been so great that we've seen rapid and fundamental changes to communities, that more and more people do not feel at home, safe or secure anymore.

These are not perceived problems based on misinformation, they're things people are confronted with on a daily basis when leaving their homes.

Politicians on the left, centre and centre-right have been slow to detect the shift in mood and slow to react to warning signs. The far right are on the rise across Europe as a result mainly because increasing numbers of people feel their feelings and experiences are being belittled, that they're not being listened to and that they have no other option but to go there.

 

[SpurMeUp]

He also mentioned middle class, and being the "all the rage" has no being whether you think that FGM is culturally right or wrong.

What he was insinuating was that my opinions were influenced by BS and not the fact that I am actually interested in cultures and history, and I don't watch TV and buy newspapers, as they are all total BS.

So my point still remains, are the cultures that think FGM is equal to those that think it is abhorrent. Whether people like or not, some cultures are better than others, it's just the way it is and in no way should be treated as equal by law in the UK, or allowed anywhere near our country.

You’re quite the Anthropologist! What makes you think cultures are like Top of the Pops? That we could or should rank them?

How the hell do you rank cultures!? Would be fascinating. You might produce a Doctorate on this for the local anthropology department

Never mind the idiocy of trying to rank cultures. The premise that we are an ‘enlightened culture’ and others are ‘savages’ is a bit out dated. Don’t you concur old boy?