Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[P.D.]

Agreed, a couple of beers in the office after work is really a complete non event. Most companies that were open probably did the same. Far bigger things going on.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You do seem to have a proper bee in your bonnet over “woke!” I would hazard a guess that woke is far down the list of reasons that Labour are not winning more popular support. Way behind not creating an alternative vision of how they are going to attract investment for job creation, not offering an alternative to the grossly unfair health and social care reforms that penalise the less wealthy with the payment cap, and it is not clear what Labour are offering in terms of tackling climate change. Now they may have put out briefings on all these matters but their policies are not engaging with the so called middle or working classes. Sort out their message on these matters and they would appeal to more people.

On the subject of complaining, I wonder what you make of several back bench Tories attacking anything they deem as curtailing free speech while complaining about Chris Whitty exercising his free speech and answering questions at the press briefings? Are they woke? Or just fudging spoilt brats?

Because it’s a dumb and misguided ideology that only 10% of society at best support. It started out as a good idea I.e. to be awakened to the struggles of minorities, the LGBT community etc. it’s now become people waking up offended, policing speech, cancelling people for things they said when they were children. And it’s actually the opposite of what cognitive behavioural therapists use in the therapy to treat anxiety and depression in young people. If you indulge people and their “micro aggressions” you end up with a very neurotic society. Maybe I am overestimating it’s importance in this country, but I’d say it’s a big factor in why Trump got elected. It was a factor in some of the recent state elections in America where schools were micro-managing what they taught students and the parents pushed back and decided to vote republican. I don’t want the same thing to happen over here. I want Labour to get their brick together. If the Lib Dems can beat the tories then that’s an outcome I’d happily support.

 

[glasgowspur]

Because it’s a dumb and misguided ideology that only 10% of society at best support. It started out as a good idea I.e. to be awakened to the struggles of minorities, the LGBT community etc. it’s now become people waking up offended, policing speech, cancelling people for things they said when they were children. And it’s actually the opposite of what cognitive behavioural therapists use in the therapy to treat anxiety and depression in young people. If you indulge people and their “micro aggressions” you end up with a very neurotic society. Maybe I am overestimating it’s importance in this country, but I’d say it’s a big factor in why Trump got elected. It was a factor in some of the recent state elections in America where schools were micro-managing what they taught students and the parents pushed back and decided to vote republican. I don’t want the same thing to happen over here. I want Labour to get their brick together. If the Lib Dems can beat the tories then that’s an outcome I’d happily support.

The real issue is that the "woke" are not only very vocal, but are extremely good shouting down anything they don't agree with and manipulating the narrative to anyone that doesn't agree with us is a bigot.
For reasons that i cannot fathom a certain element of the politicos seem to think that not only will this win them votes, it will win them elections.

 

[Robspur12]

Because it’s a dumb and misguided ideology that only 10% of society at best support. It started out as a good idea I.e. to be awakened to the struggles of minorities, the LGBT community etc. it’s now become people waking up offended, policing speech, cancelling people for things they said when they were children. And it’s actually the opposite of what cognitive behavioural therapists use in the therapy to treat anxiety and depression in young people. If you indulge people and their “micro aggressions” you end up with a very neurotic society. Maybe I am overestimating it’s importance in this country, but I’d say it’s a big factor in why Trump got elected. It was a factor in some of the recent state elections in America where schools were micro-managing what they taught students and the parents pushed back and decided to vote republican. I don’t want the same thing to happen over here. I want Labour to get their brick together. If the Lib Dems can beat the tories then that’s an outcome I’d happily support.

Trump got elected, because he promised jobs in the rust belt, was vocal about cracking down on immigration, cut taxes, and divided American society along race lines to conquer. "Woke" is a popular right wing beating stick. Im not even sure how to define it, anything that is not liked about the left seems to be described as "woke." You didn't answer my question, about the Tories who have been offended by Chris Whitty not sharing the same opinion as them on the pandemic, are they being "woke?" Or is it just a pejorative term reserved for "lefties?"

As a person from an ethnic background who suffered and witnessed deep prejudice growing up, I think language is very important. It's amazing what was "acceptable" in speech in the 70s and 80s compared to now or on tv or in general society. Society is far less tolerant of sexist, racist and homophobic language now. Not everyone agrees but I think society is better for it. I don't know what your background is mate, perhaps you have been lucky enough not to have suffered prejudice for it. If so count yourself very lucky.

 

[Robspur12]

[Hope you don't mind me replying to your post in the politics thread rather than the coronavirus one from where I've taken your post]

Taken from the BBC website :
The BBC understands a quiz was held for members of Mr Case's private office on 17 December 2020, and invites were sent out titled "Christmas Party!"
About 15 people were invited to the gathering at 70 Whitehall, near Downing Street, although it is understood not everyone turned up.
Responding to the claims, a government spokesperson said: "Staff in the cabinet secretary's private office took part in a virtual quiz on 17 December 2020.
"A small number of them, who had been working in the office throughout the pandemic and on duty that day, took part from their desks, while the rest of the team were virtual.
"The cabinet secretary played no part in the event, but walked through the team's office on the way to his own office.
"No outside guests or other staff were invited or present. This lasted for an hour and drinks and snacks were bought by those attending. He also spoke briefly to staff in the office before leaving."

Whilst I hate everything about this government, I really don't have a huge issue with the above, if it happened as represented here.
Yes, blatant hypocrisy from government officials should be called out, proper office parties with pre-arranged buffets should be called out. But a handful of people in an office having a quiz with a beer or a glass of wine - not so much. Yes, I get the potential conflict in this particular case. But there is so much other stuff going on - the Police and Crime bill, the Borders bill, the proposed changes to the Human Rights act, to say nothing of the huge level of corruption that's gone on throughout the pandemic with $$$ contracts awarded to tory donors and tory pals, none of which is getting the coverage it deserves. Maybe it's a bit like Al Capone, except in this case it's not tax evasion but Christmas booze-ups that become Boris's downfall. But this Xmas party stuff is becoming a smokescreen covering up so much else, and labour are as guilty as the media for allowing this to happen.

I agree with most of what you say this Christmas party stuff is getting very irritating. In defence of Labour, they have been talking about the other things you mentioned, but the electorate are not interested. But a whiff of government breaking their own rules seems to get them riled up. I'm sure keir starmer does want to move on from this it's just a lot of people do not want to.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Trump got elected, because he promised jobs in the rust belt, was vocal about cracking down on immigration, cut taxes, and divided American society along race lines to conquer. "Woke" is a popular right wing beating stick. Im not even sure how to define it, anything that is not liked about the left seems to be described as "woke." You didn't answer my question, about the Tories who have been offended by Chris Whitty not sharing the same opinion as them on the pandemic, are they being "woke?" Or is it just a pejorative term reserved for "lefties?"

As a person from an ethnic background who suffered and witnessed deep prejudice growing up, I think language is very important. It's amazing what was "acceptable" in speech in the 70s and 80s compared to now or on tv or in general society. Society is far less tolerant of sexist, racist and homophobic language now. Not everyone agrees but I think society is better for it. I don't know what your background is mate, perhaps you have been lucky enough not to have suffered prejudice for it. If so count yourself very lucky.

I completely disagree. The narrative is critics of wokeism are on the political right which isn’t true. A lot of comedians are against it and regularly speak out against the current climate of not being able to speak freely due to fear of upsetting people. You don’t have to be right wing to be against wokeism. It’s only the far left and a vocal minority on Twitter who subscribe to it. I think most people except language changes and evolves over time and what might have been acceptable 20 years just isn’t on now and that’s totally fine, society evolves. But there’s also ambiguities and nuances in life. Trying to apply todays norms and conventions to behaviour from 50 years ago just doesn’t make sense to me. If we were to fast forward to 50 years from now and look back on todays culture, I doubt we’d look at man buns and people spending all day on social media and think yeah that’s when civilisation peaked.

To answer your question, there’s snowflakes on the left and the right. It used to be the right who policed speech and liked to tell people what they could and couldn’t say, called for things to be banned etc. now they’ve done a switcheroo and it’s the left who like to police speech and tell people off for the language they use. I just don’t think it works no matter what side does it.

 

[markysimmo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1472288549584125953

 

[markysimmo]

1st of many

 

[Mikey10]

Baling out as he begins to realise Brexit is turning out to be the disaster many predicted. Even died-in-the-wool Tory North Shropshire farmers are beginning to work it out.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Baling out as he begins to realise Brexit is turning out to be the disaster many predicted. Even died-in-the-wool Tory North Shropshire farmers are beginning to work it out.

There is only so much flogging a dead horse that you can do. It won't make it run.

 

[SpurMeUp]

These trade figures are apparently from the Bank of England, and suggest the EU economies have bounced back from Covid far more than the UK.

I would guess this Trade trend is exacerbated by Covid, because the UK - or rather London - is such an international hub. Did we suffer more on average than Europe from Covid? However, that probably doesn't explain it all. Companies have moved trade into the EU to be in the single market. Some finance jobs and revenue have gone into the EU, and some EU trade has been lost. Still hard to know how much. Anyone have a different explanation, or is it fair to say another Brexit myth is being busted? The economy wouldn't suffer from Brexit. It maybe too soon to say with certainty what with covid but it does look that way.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm surprised at this, to be honest, but pleasantly surprised. The man was an awful negotiator and wholly unsuited to deal with the delicate and nuanced situation that is NI.

I assume the underlying reason (despite what he says) is A16 and Boris' reluctance to go nuclear on it. To invoke it obviously would have been a political mistake to rank with the worst and BoJo's political weather vane may have belatedly pointed him the right way on this (or maybe the headwind from America did). So whoever comes next will be an indicator of a change of tack to a more amicable relationship with the EU, or if another hardliner is appointed it will compound an already failed approach on this issue. Make no mistake what Bojo chooses to do is to save his own skin and what is best for NI is a distant afterthought. Hopefully, they both align for once.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'm surprised at this, to be honest, but pleasantly surprised. The man was an awful negotiator and wholly unsuited to deal with the delicate and nuanced situation that is NI.

I assume the underlying reason (despite what he says) is A16 and Boris' reluctance to go nuclear on it. To invoke it obviously would have been a political mistake to rank with the worst and BoJo's political weather vane may have belatedly pointed him the right way on this (or maybe the headwind from America did). So whoever comes next will be an indicator of a change of tack to a more amicable relationship with the EU, or if another hardliner is appointed it will compound an already failed approach on this issue. Make no mistake what Bojo chooses to do is to save his own skin and what is best for NI is a distant afterthought. Hopefully, they both align for once.

I think allowing the European Court to adjudicate over disputes is the next climb down from the UK. There have been murmurings about this already. The much vaulted "UK sovergnity" could be compromised! Anyone in government who starts to work closely with the EU will likely acquiesce on this issue. Frost himself seemed to be. You can see why he's resigning. If he oversaw a change to allow EU courts to adjudicate over disputes, the fuss that he and others made over sovereignty would be shown up to be the load of crap that it was.

Wouldn't it be nice if those who spouted the nonsense (myths) are called to answer for their lies/stupidity.

 

[Rorschach]

I think allowing the European Court to adjudicate over disputes is the next climb down from the UK. There have been murmurings about this already. The much vaulted "UK sovergnity" could be compromised! Anyone in government who starts to work closely with the EU will likely acquiesce on this issue. Frost himself seemed to be. You can see why he's resigning. If he oversaw a change to allow EU courts to adjudicate over disputes, the fuss that he and others made over sovereignty would be shown up to be the load of crap that it was.

Wouldn't it be nice if those who spouted the nonsense (myths) are called to answer for their lies/stupidity.

That's more or less has been conceded already from what I've heard. The ECJ jurisdiction in NI was a new 'red line' that Frost introduced very late in the day anyway. Their oversight is very minimal. It was never a significant issue throughout the negotiations until they decided to make it one.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I actually think Johnson and Frost's reckless approach to negotiations has served us well so far. It's a divorce as clean as could never have been hoped for back under May/is actually pretty cake and eaty.

But now we've won the war, it probably makes sense to bring in people more conventional to manage the peace (as PM, as well as Brexit minister).

Northern Ireland is a bit of a funny one. If it wasn't for the PR, I think we're at a stage now that even the most unionist of English politicians would actually be delighted to see a speedy border poll and get the whole reunification thing finished with sooner rather than later. Everything else is really just for show

 

[Rorschach]

I actually thing Johnson and frost's wreckless approach to negotiations has served us well so far. It's a divorce as clean as could never have been hoped for/cake and eaty back under May.

But now we've won the war, it probably makes sense to bring in people more conventional to manage the peace (as PM, as well as Brexit minister).

Northern Ireland is a bit of a funny one. If it wasn't for the PR, I think we're at a stage now that even the most unionist of English politicians would actually be delighted to see a speedy border poll and get the whole reunification thing finished with sooner rather than later. Everything else is really just for show

What war was won? Sweet jeebus.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I actually think Johnson and Frost's reckless approach to negotiations has served us well so far. It's a divorce as clean as could never have been hoped for back under May/is actually pretty cake and eaty.

But now we've won the war, it probably makes sense to bring in people more conventional to manage the peace (as PM, as well as Brexit minister).

Northern Ireland is a bit of a funny one. If it wasn't for the PR, I think we're at a stage now that even the most unionist of English politicians would actually be delighted to see a speedy border poll and get the whole reunification thing finished with sooner rather than later. Everything else is really just for show

Could do with telling the Scots to bugger off as well.

Funny that in a trade deal one side should have the final say on any disputes rather then a truly independent body. Wonder where else in the world that happens exactly?

 

[Gutter Boy]

What war was won? Sweet jeebus.

Removed from the control of all EU institutions, no more social dumping, phased reclaiming of fishing waters, new independent RoW trade deals and minimal new trade barriers. Win win win really. As a long term brexiteer (from the green/lexit wing, going back 20 years), its everything straight away which I thought would need to be eked out over decades.

 

[Mikey10]

I actually think Johnson and Frost's reckless approach to negotiations has served us well so far. It's a divorce as clean as could never have been hoped for back under May/is actually pretty cake and eaty.

But now we've won the war, it probably makes sense to bring in people more conventional to manage the peace (as PM, as well as Brexit minister).

Northern Ireland is a bit of a funny one. If it wasn't for the PR, I think we're at a stage now that even the most unionist of English politicians would actually be delighted to see a speedy border poll and get the whole reunification thing finished with sooner rather than later. Everything else is really just for show

Satire is truly dead.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Could do with telling the Scots to bugger off as well.

Funny that in a trade deal one side should have the final say on any disputes rather then a truly independent body. Wonder where else in the world that happens exactly?

David Dein and Lasagnagate?