Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Rorschach]

You cant feed an effective socialist society without a good economy though. What I notice from the hardcore socialists though or the sense I get is there is some kind of victory in being poor.

Everyone on the left is not a hardcore socialist, nor even a socialist. I doubt there is even one true socialist on this site though there are many left leaning voices. To conflate socialism with social democracy is a misdirect really. Socialists are the fringe of the left in much the same way that fascists are the fringe of the right.

A thriving economy is part of all successful social democracies. They are not poor countries by any measure, even using a flawed measurement like GDP. The quality of life in these countries is a better measure. Those countries that year on year are at the top of the best and most desirable countries to live in are those which embrace social democratic principles most closely.

 

[Grays_1890]

A thriving economy is part of all successful social democracies. They are not poor countries by any measure, even with flawed measurements like GDP. Quality of life in these countries is measure in more ways than just finacial wealth. Those countries that year on year are at the top of the best and most desirable countries to live in are those which embrace social democratic principles most closely.

Are we talking hardcore socialism or socialist leaning? we using the desirable cities index which includes Vienna and Adelaide, Vancouver and Toronto? I lived in Canada and its more liberal than many other countries but its certainly not a fully socialist society especially with how it treats its first nations population.

 

[spurspinter1]

Those "successes" are at the cost of the hard working and successful. I don't consider that to be a success.

Younger people used to vote Conservative, that probably tells you more about the ambition of current younger generations than it does any wider political point.

If anything, without wanting to go to far left, I think the ambition of the young folk is to actually have a planet in a century or so

The "system" (yeah I know) thrives on people buying in to it. That's why Brad Bradington feels really good about his 90k wage from moving around ones and zeros in the ether so he can provide for his family, because they are more important then the masses of people without clean water / food / basic healthcare due to blood relations meaning everything and compassion for other members of our species is barely even an afterthought. Look on here and what does it tell you, people are mainly a bunch of total clams.

If your main goal is to gather as much as you can for yourself (and your snotty offspring) the chances are any hope of enlightenment are slim because you'd have to justify not caring about the unnecessary waste of life that we* could fixed instead of propping up the coke / pepsi advertising war for all this time.


*we refers to the human population. Even if I added footnotes and a TED talk to summarise I appreciate I'll still get the mouthbreathers mashing their hands against the keyboard with the accuracy of a stormtrooper fresh out of "how to shoot lasers accurately" day one training.

 

[scaramanga]

If anything, without wanting to go to far left, I think the ambition of the young folk is to actually have a planet in a century or so

The "system" (yeah I know) thrives on people buying in to it. That's why Brad Bradington feels really good about his 90k wage from moving around ones and zeros in the ether so he can provide for his family, because they are more important then the masses of people without clean water / food / basic healthcare due to blood relations meaning everything and compassion for other members of our species is barely even an afterthought. Look on here and what does it tell you, people are mainly a bunch of total clams.

If your main goal is to gather as much as you can for yourself (and your snotty offspring) the chances are any hope of enlightenment are slim because you'd have to justify not caring about the unnecessary waste of life that we* could fixed instead of propping up the coke / pepsi advertising war for all this time.


*we refers to the human population. Even if I added footnotes and a TED talk to summarise I appreciate I'll still get the mouthbreathers mashing their hands against the keyboard with the accuracy of a stormtrooper fresh out of "how to shoot lasers accurately" day one training.

I'm not sure Brad's going to be doing much gathering on £90k.

After the govt has had its pound of flesh, he'll have less than £60k left.

A mortgage will cost £20k, education for two kids another £35k minimum. Leasing a modest car will cost £6k, with another £2k for servicing and tyres.

So we're already going to need a second salary in the household, a large chunk of which will be swallowed by childcare costs. What's left can cover the bills and maybe a holiday.

I don't think Brad's going to be amassing any wealth to horde.

 

[spurspinter1]

I'm not sure Brad's going to be doing much gathering on £90k.

After the govt has had its pound of flesh, he'll have less than £60k left.

A mortgage will cost £20k, education for two kids another £35k minimum. Leasing a modest car will cost £6k, with another £2k for servicing and tyres.

So we're already going to need a second salary in the household, a large chunk of which will be swallowed by healthcare costs. What's left can cover the bills and maybe a holiday.

I don't think Brad's going to be amassing any wealth to horde.

I was looking forward to your response but can’t help feel you’ve become a little fixated on Brad...

It’s the acknowledgment of what a horrible odious species we are if we can’t take care of our own. brick I can barely post on here without starting beef with some nationality nevermind fix world hunger...Despite it being so easy, the idea of redistribution of wealth may make something clench, how about redistributing the calories from the fat ducks you and I see day to day bouncing on their merry way to Greggs


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I was looking forward to your response but can’t help feel you’ve become a little fixated on Brad...

It’s the acknowledgment of what a horrible odious species we are if we can’t take care of our own. brick I can barely post on here without starting beef with some nationality nevermind fix world hunger...Despite it being so easy, the idea of redistribution of wealth may make something clench, how about redistributing the calories from the fat ducks you and I see day to day bouncing on their merry way to Greggs


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

We really are an odious species. Just the other day I heard someone describe a strict visa system as a way to keep undesirables out of a country. Thankfully they were not talking about Britain or I'm sure the police would already be knocking on the door.

Racism should always be wrong. It is a problem with modern society, cherry picking bits of rules to suit you.

 

[nayenezgani]

I was looking forward to your response but can’t help feel you’ve become a little fixated on Brad...

It’s the acknowledgment of what a horrible odious species we are if we can’t take care of our own. brick I can barely post on here without starting beef with some nationality nevermind fix world hunger...Despite it being so easy, the idea of redistribution of wealth may make something clench, how about redistributing the calories from the fat ducks you and I see day to day bouncing on their merry way to Greggs

Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

This is the thing, people like @scaramanga say those who work hard and 'earn' what's there's should keep it. He's not wrong. But there's this stringent, poisonous attitude of 'what's mine is fudging mine, fudge off socialists' that exists among so many who think they're wealthy and at risk of having all their wordly possessions taken and redistributed.

The idea of having a basic living wage isn't going to take money from people earning less than many hundreds of thousands of pounds, if you can't live on 100k+ well you need to have a real re-think.

It's companies, institutions and individuals that hoard obscene wealth that need to contribute to making society more equal and fair. I'm talking billionaires, military spending, police.. I could go on.

The fact governments are willing to spend more money on tanks and guns, in a period without major war, is a clear highlighting of the issue. It would take a minor slice of that money to actually help people. No child should go hungry, no one should be homeless.

There's so little empathy in many of us and it's really, really sad. But while we're distracted and desperate to keep 'what's ours,' pitted against each other, those in power can keep handing contracts to their billioniare buddies and fudge the rest of us in silence.

 

[P.D.]

Personally I think that is a false dichotomy. Any sensible system would cherry pick the best elements from both left and right - why wouldn’t you? Ideology and football like loyalty to a party or cause can be hugely damaging.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Isn't that what the Liberal Democrats try and do and it hasn't got them very far.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Isn't that what the Liberal Democrats try and do and it hasn't got them very far.

I am not really sure what they stand for. They have a terrible image. Always come across as sitting on the fence without any clear direction. It does not really matter the colour of the people in charge. You just want people who are able to govern well. Who have interesting ideas. Who can create direction and galvanise the nation to work towards something. That has been lacking for so long. Popularism offers that at least on the surface. A national drive for something. Covid offered an opportunity to galvanise the nation too in a war-like stance. But any national cohesion was soon lost with dilly-dallying policies and incompetence. We'll be paying back the billions they flung at late PPE and test and trace for decades. The government spent £15b on PPE, much of which will be thrown away. There are hangers in Felixstow with tonnes of PPE that was the result of the government's panic and lack of preparedness. The MOD spends the same figure - £15b - on armaments for 10 years! Wow.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

This is the thing, people like @scaramanga say those who work hard and 'earn' what's there's should keep it. He's not wrong. But there's this stringent, poisonous attitude of 'what's mine is fudging mine, fudge off socialists' that exists among so many who think they're wealthy and at risk of having all their wordly possessions taken and redistributed.

The idea of having a basic living wage isn't going to take money from people earning less than many hundreds of thousands of pounds, if you can't live on 100k+ well you need to have a real re-think.

It's companies, institutions and individuals that hoard obscene wealth that need to contribute to making society more equal and fair. I'm talking billionaires, military spending, police.. I could go on.

The fact governments are willing to spend more money on tanks and guns, in a period without major war, is a clear highlighting of the issue. It would take a minor slice of that money to actually help people. No child should go hungry, no one should be homeless.

There's so little empathy in many of us and it's really, really sad. But while we're distracted and desperate to keep 'what's ours,' pitted against each other, those in power can keep handing contracts to their billioniare buddies and fudge the rest of us in silence.

Saw a stat the other day about how many billonaires the are today compared to 30 years ago.

Also the amount or rather lack of tax that companies like amazon pay is just disgusting. I liked the Thatcher those with talent or hard work could achieve thing. But having a teenage son I want a fair country for him to grow up into.

 

[Grays_1890]

I agree with alot of what is said based on the very top of society but some pretty broad strokes taken if people are suggesting it reflects wider society.

The average wage in the UK is 30k, take into account that 7k of that will be taken in tax leaving 23k a year, forget Brad at 90k a year. Take into account the cost of living in the UK I would not say that giving 30% of what you earn at the bottom end of ladder reflects an unsocialist society, In fact I think that it reflects the opposite. People talk about what they consider real socialist countries who contribute more but that is often offset by higher salaries so I am not sure that makes them anymore socialist by nature.

Giving a third of your hard earned before your hard earned has even hit your bank account is hardly anyone shirking their responsibility to their fellow man, thats before you get raped on day to day tax on anything you spend to live.

What people might find a surprising stat, the UK is historically one of the most generous if not thee in donations to charity in the western world. Over three quarters give to charitable causes.

 

[scaramanga]

This is the thing, people like @scaramanga say those who work hard and 'earn' what's there's should keep it. He's not wrong. But there's this stringent, poisonous attitude of 'what's mine is fudging mine, fudge off socialists' that exists among so many who think they're wealthy and at risk of having all their wordly possessions taken and redistributed.

The idea of having a basic living wage isn't going to take money from people earning less than many hundreds of thousands of pounds, if you can't live on 100k+ well you need to have a real re-think.

It's companies, institutions and individuals that hoard obscene wealth that need to contribute to making society more equal and fair. I'm talking billionaires, military spending, police.. I could go on.

The fact governments are willing to spend more money on tanks and guns, in a period without major war, is a clear highlighting of the issue. It would take a minor slice of that money to actually help people. No child should go hungry, no one should be homeless.

There's so little empathy in many of us and it's really, really sad. But while we're distracted and desperate to keep 'what's ours,' pitted against each other, those in power can keep handing contracts to their billioniare buddies and fudge the rest of us in silence.

Companies and institutions don't have money, their shareholders do.

What do you think happens to prices if everyone's earning more under your redistribution scheme?

 

[scaramanga]

Saw a stat the other day about how many billonaires the are today compared to 30 years ago.

Also the amount or rather lack of tax that companies like amazon pay is just disgusting. I liked the Thatcher those with talent or hard work could achieve thing. But having a teenage son I want a fair country for him to grow up into.

Amazon pay every single penny of tax they're legally required to.

Do you pay more tax than you have to voluntarily?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Amazon pay every single penny of tax they're legally required to.

Do you pay more tax than you have to voluntarily?

No I do not.

But if the law were to change so I paid more I would. The needs to be a change in the law. For the type of society I want to live in with more police on the street better education and health services, if I were rightly asked to pay a higher percentage of tax I would.

I do not believe everything should be done for the cheapest possible price the whole time and I dont think we should bow down to companies who dont pay a fair share of tax.

 

[Rorschach]

Are we talking hardcore socialism or socialist leaning? we using the desirable cities index which includes Vienna and Adelaide, Vancouver and Toronto? I lived in Canada and its more liberal than many other countries but its certainly not a fully socialist society especially with how it treats its first nations population.

I had no particular country in mind but these quality of life league table things are fairly consistent, irrespective of the publication. You could pick holes in the policies of every one of these countries if you looked hard enough, I'd imagine. So IMO steering clear of whataboutism is probably wiser. I also think it wise to park the socialism label. As I said, it is an incorrect categorisation of these countries and the word itself carries implications that imply something that is not there.

I prefer to frame the discussion more in terms of up and down. I believe there should a watermark below which a caring society should not let any of its members fall beneath. Equally, I think there should be a high mark that bounds the extent to which a society's inequality can be stretched too. And both of these boundaries should be placed with an ecological framework of human needs versus what the planet can sustain. The sweet spot is a regenerative economy and a more equal society that does reward effort and success but with an upper limit to wealth accumulation.

 

[Diamond Lights]

a lot being made on Tax, i'd chip in a bit more if i knew it was going to the right causes and places.

However, don't tell me to chip more tax in, or that we can't feed kids in schools, when we are spending Billions on things like Trident. That's what fudges me off. All so the UK can have a dingdong measuring contest with other nations to act like big boys. A deterrent? fudge that.

 

[Diamond Lights]

But if the law were to change so I paid more I would. The needs to be a change in the law. For the type of society I want to live in with more police on the street better education and health services, if I were rightly asked to pay a higher percentage of tax I would.

Then people vote Tory and get cuts in policing, education, health, then spend their time complaining about police, education, and health.

 

[Grays_1890]

Amazon pay every single penny of tax they're legally required to.

Do you pay more tax than you have to voluntarily?

I am not a tax expert but is it not a fine line for this kind of thing? Ireland for example was on its backside after joining the Euro, when I went out there back in the day to visit clients in Dun Laoghaire the economy was shocking. They then gave favorable tax terms to the Facebooks, Googles and Fintech companies which turned the country into what they started to refer to as a silicon valley and the knock on effect you see today is clear. So you have to be competitive to attract organisations which then offer jobs which in turn has it employees pay tax which goes back into the economy which keeps the cogs turning whilst also giving areas an chance to revitalize which I have seen in the likes of Tilbury for example which has seen better investment in the area and more organisation entering the arena?

 

[Grays_1890]

a lot being made on Tax, i'd chip in a bit more if i knew it was going to the right causes and places.

However, don't tell me to chip more tax in, or that we can't feed kids in schools, when we are spending Billions on things like Trident. That's what fudges me off. All so the UK can have a dingdong measuring contest with other nations to act like big boys. A deterrent? fudge that.

I said the same on here years ago, I would happily pay a third tax as long as it was ring fenced to other causes and not the Indian Space Race

 

[Grays_1890]

I had no particular country in mind but these quality of life league table things are fairly consistent, irrespective of the publication. You could pick holes in the policies of every one of these countries if you looked hard enough, I'd imagine. So IMO steering clear of whataboutism is probably wiser. I also think it wise to park the socialism label. As I said, it is an incorrect categorisation of these countries and the word itself carries implications that imply something that is not there.

I prefer to frame the discussion more in terms of up and down. I believe there should a watermark below which a caring society should not let any of its members fall beneath. Equally, I think there should be a high mark that bounds the extent to which a society's inequality can be stretched too. And both of these boundaries should be placed with an ecological framework of human needs versus what the planet can sustain. The sweet spot is a regenerative economy and a more equal society that does reward effort and success but with an upper limit to wealth accumalation.

Does anyone have that? I will avoid whataboutisms and take a broad stroke then and suggest that any country has its pitfalls in how its run. If you was to score the world you would Must try harder