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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

StephenH said:
No big deal for me!
Selling it would be another matter;)
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Quite it adds to his worldly experience. I think he was traveling through Iran and Afganistan and sampled the local offerings. Despite the NHS handing out similar stuff, it is a hard one for any public official to endorse. And he didn't to be fair he said it was a mistake.
 
Sky are reporting an extension will be requested by PM on 19th Oct if no deal is agreed in the next two weeks.
 
Rorschach said:
Sky are reporting an extension will be requested by PM on 19th Oct if no deal is agreed in the next two weeks.
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He'll probably blow the place up at midnight on the 19 and then be seen railing at the crowd below from the roof. In true Quasimodo!
 
Rorschach said:
Sky are reporting an extension will be requested by PM on 19th Oct if no deal is agreed in the next two weeks.
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All sounds a bit smoke and mirrors. From the BBC website :

A senior Downing Street source said: "The government will comply with the Benn Act, which only imposes a very specific narrow duty concerning Parliament's letter requesting a delay - drafted by an unknown subset of MPs and pro-EU campaigners - and which can be interpreted in different ways.

"But the government is not prevented by the Act from doing other things that cause no delay, including other communications, private and public.

"People will have to wait to see how this is reconciled. The government is making its true position on delay known privately in Europe and this will become public soon."
 
Glenda's Legs said:
All sounds a bit smoke and mirrors. From the BBC website :

A senior Downing Street source said: "The government will comply with the Benn Act, which only imposes a very specific narrow duty concerning Parliament's letter requesting a delay - drafted by an unknown subset of MPs and pro-EU campaigners - and which can be interpreted in different ways.

"But the government is not prevented by the Act from doing other things that cause no delay, including other communications, private and public.

"People will have to wait to see how this is reconciled. The government is making its true position on delay known privately in Europe and this will become public soon."
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It does. I think Boris has one more card up his sleeve.
 
Parklaner81 said:
This is the key point for me.

We need to differentiate between true, legitimate dissention in response to changing events over time and immediate toy-throwing at not liking a particular result, without any actual change in circumstance. In my view the post-referendum scenario has been far more of the latter than the former.
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The Leave side have perpetuated the argument that the referendum result hasn’t been delivered because remainers have frustrated the process. There is absolutely no evidence for this. For me it epitomises the whole brexit debate. Leavers always need to have somebody else to blame. Blame the EU, Blame the remainers, blame the judiciary, in fact blame anyone to deflect from the fact they never had a proper plan in the first place.

The vote to trigger article 50 was passed with a majority in Parliament. The vote for a withdrawal bill was passed with a majority. Remainers were tinkled sure, but the votes went against them. What has happened since is that the Leave side have had no plan in place to implement their their victory. They are not even sure what Leave means because there are so many types of Leave and the fools who thought up the referendum were not clear what they meant.

No answer to the Ireland question that doesnt involve a return to the troubles, no answer to the lack of infrastructure at the ports that will result in shortages of foods and medicines, No answer to how we deal with the myriad of other partnerships we have set up on education, security and health. No positive vision just some pie in the sky notion of all the trade deals we are going to sign. Well we can’t even sign one with EU, which the Leavers told us would be easy.

So into the vacuum have come the hard brexiteers wanting “no deal” and the ardent remainers who want brexit camcelled. To me it was absolutely clear that the biggest reason to Leave was to end free movement and yet the extreme leavers want to piggy back their agenda, voting against Mrs May’s deal which would have delivered the referendum result.

I’m sick and tired of this and sadly although I don’t like referendums the only way to deliver a fair result is to have a second one, with more choices and implications laid out.
 
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You look at the Government’s front bench and you see arch brexiteers such as Raab, Rees Mogg and Priti Patel. Their views are underpinned by the crazies like Farage, Tommy Robinson, and the ERG. It’s no wonder moderate remainers like myself are concerned about the direction our country is taking. Of course leavers will dismiss it, as usual, as remainers angst.
 
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Parklaner81 said:
I think so too. And I certainly hope the EU are reading it that way - if they actually believe he's going to have to ask to extend, the chances of a deal go to zero.
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The chances of a new deal now are pretty much zero already. Times up on anything new and frankly that was never the plan anyway. Boris will have to ask to extend, that's the law, and I can't see him not doing it. I think the trick, if it comes, will come after that. One theory floated is that there has been a behind the scenes agreement with one of the EU27 (Hungary??) to veto the extension. I'm not sure how much credence to give to this claim but it does line up with his message of obeying the law and leaving on the 31st no matter what.
 
Robspur12 said:
You look at the Government’s front bench and you see arch brexiteers such as Raab, Rees Mogg and Priti Patel. Their views are underpinned by the crazies like Farage, Tommy Robinson, and the ERG. It’s no wonder moderate remainers like myself are concerned about the direction our country is taking. Of course leavers will dismiss it, as usual, as remainers angst.
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Not that I was overly fond of May's deal, but if more 'moderate remainers' (I'm looking at the Labour party, who in my honest opinion put party political rivalry above anything else) had backed it, we wouldn't be in this position now...
 
Parklaner81 said:
Not that I was overly fond of May's deal, but if more 'moderate remainers' (I'm looking at the Labour party, who in my honest opinion put party political rivalry above anything else) had backed it, we wouldn't be in this position now...
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But you cannot blame one side without blaming the other such as brexiteers who also voted against the deal including Johnson. Btw the Labour leadership are not known for being remainers. Leavers want to see conspiracies every where.
 
Robspur12 said:
But you cannot blame one side without blaming the other such as brexiteers who also voted against the deal including Johnson. Btw the Labour leadership are not known for being remainers. Leavers want to see conspiracies every where.
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For a 'moderate remainer', you seem quite aerated about 'leavers' this evening. By the way, I'm pretty sure Johnson voted for May's deal on the 3rd vote.

Brexiteer holdouts got whittled down pretty low by that point - was it 20-odd? I'm not even sure there were enough of them left to have swung it. There are 200+ Labour MP's, and I think 5 of them supported the deal on the 3rd vote. I'm not absolutely certain on the figures, but I don't think these estimates will be far wrong.

So when you look at the numbers I think it's perfectly reasonable to point the finger at Labour over this.
 
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Parklaner81 said:
For a 'moderate remainer', you seem quite aerated about 'leavers' this evening. By the way, I'm pretty sure Johnson voted for May's deal on the 3rd vote.

Brexiteer holdouts got whittled down pretty low by that point - was it 20-odd? I'm not even sure there were enough of them left to have swung it. There are 200+ Labour MP's, and I think 5 of them supported the deal on the 3rd vote. I'm not absolutely certain on the figures, but I don't think these estimates will be far wrong.

So when you look at the numbers I think it's perfectly reasonable to point the finger at Labour over this.
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You're right I am aerated. But that does not mean I am not moderate. Being a moderate remainer means I have accepted the referendum decision to leave but want a deal. I have accepted we need to have control of our borders. But I don't believe in the no deal nonsense now put forward. I am also tired of the constant inaccurate blaming of remainers for the situation the country is in. The Labour party leader ship are not remainers really. They voted to trigger Article 50. You could say they voted against May's deal for political purposes or perhaps they wanted a different type of"leave" from the one offered by the deal. That's the problem there are lots of different ways to "leave."

Whether Boris voted the third time for the deal he still voted twice against.
 
Robspur12 said:
You're right I am aerated. But that does not mean I am not moderate. Being a moderate remainer means I have accepted the referendum decision to leave but want a deal. I have accepted we need to have control of our borders. But I don't believe in the no deal nonsense now put forward. I am also tired of the constant inaccurate blaming of remainers for the situation the country is in. The Labour party leader ship are not remainers really. They voted to trigger Article 50. You could say they voted against May's deal for political purposes or perhaps they wanted a different type of"leave" from the one offered by the deal. That's the problem there are lots of different ways to "leave."

Whether Boris voted the third time for the deal he still voted twice against.
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What does it matter that 'the Labour party leadership are not remainers'? Most of it's MP's are. And virtually none of them backed May's deal, which was a middle of the road fudge if ever there was one. The very people it should have attracted were the genuinely moderate remainers who accepted the result and wanted to leave with a gentle deal. That so many of them (on the Labour side) refused to do so only paved the way for somebody like Johnson to come in and veer off from moderation.

I can't criticise the SNP or the Lib Dems (or, for that matter, the DUP) for voting against May's deal - it cut against their avowed beliefs. But Labour? As far as I can see it was pure party politics - they wanted to bring May down first and foremost.

If I were a moderate remainer, that's where I'd be directing my anger.
 
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Rorschach said:
The chances of a new deal now are pretty much zero already. Times up on anything new and frankly that was never the plan anyway. Boris will have to ask to extend, that's the law, and I can't see him not doing it. I think the trick, if it comes, will come after that. One theory floated is that there has been a behind the scenes agreement with one of the EU27 (Hungary??) to veto the extension. I'm not sure how much credence to give to this claim but it does line up with his message of obeying the law and leaving on the 31st no matter what.
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This seems to rule out anything like that...but who knows.

https://news.sky.com/story/pm-will-seek-brexit-extension-if-no-deal-agreed-by-19-october-11827149
 
Parklaner81 said:
What does it matter that 'the Labour party leadership are not remainers'? Most of it's MP's are. And virtually none of them backed May's deal, which was a middle of the road fudge if ever there was one. The very people it should have attracted were the genuinely moderate remainers who accepted the result and wanted to leave with a gentle deal. That so many of them (on the Labour side) refused to do so only paved the way for somebody like Johnson to come in and veer off from moderation.

I can't criticise the SNP or the Lib Dems (or, for that matter, the DUP) for voting against May's deal - it cut against their avowed beliefs. But Labour? As far as I can see it was pure party politics - they wanted to bring May down first and foremost.

If I were a moderate remainer, that's where I'd be directing my anger.
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Labour are leavers. They voted to trigger Article 50. How they choose to Leave though may be different to how the Tories choose to Leave. If Labour put forward a deal do you think the Tories will just accept it? Of course not. That's just party politics. The con however, was Leavers claiming that the process of leaving would be straight forward. They were warned by remain, that the machinery of government would be paralysed by brexit. Now it is harder than they anticipated they are resorting to blaming a 'remain' conspiracy. There is no such thing.
 
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