Grays_1890
Chris Jones
I never said you was and we would be out with a deal had remain not done its hardest to stop leave completely. Thats just a fact really.
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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
I never said you was and we would be out with a deal had remain not done its hardest to stop leave completely. Thats just a fact really.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
That is not fact. If it is you could tell me how people stopped the perfect Brexit. Was a May exit the promise land?
Brexit was easy remember. Those who lied to you and told you it would be simple doing a trade deal with the EU, are also lying now, telling folks a no deal is just fine.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
I'm happy with a no deal though, so that is the easy route. Takes the deal out of those that just want to stay in the EU for the easy life.
That's simply not true and yet another rewrite of history from Remainers.
It's not forcing no deal - parliament reconvenes in time to vote on a deal before Oct 31st.
Taking No Deal off the table absolutely forces us into remaining though. Play some Game Theory with it. Parliament passes some rule that says we cannot leave the EU without already having negotiated a deal. If the EU wants us to remain then they simply offer us a deal so bad it can never get through parliament - result = Remain. Or maybe they don't want us to remain, so they just offer us a deal that is great for them and terrible for us because they don't have to offer anything better - result = Remain.
The only way these negotiations can possibly end up in any kind of version of us leaving the EU (as per the referendum mandate) is if we can hold a No Deal prospect over the EU. After all, it's the only thing that's got them talking to us in the last couple of weeks.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
If it is obvious to you, why wouldn't it be obvious to the EU too? The danger is a no deal by default. By accident. I quite like a bit of anarchy, but it is staggering that a country as well respected as ours would put itself in such a damaging place. The end of the Great in Britian.
It should be about outcomes. Johnson is attempting to give the UK the outcome it voted for but first has to overcome an attempt to undermine that.
It is very fudging obvious to the EU. That's why they refused to budge until the prospect of leaving without a deal became real to them and us.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Ok put it this way, do the EU want Brexit to be a great success?
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Of course the end? Behave
195 countries in the world to trade with, 167 that sit outside the EU and people are claiming its the end of the world as we know it.
You can't compare what we do with the EU and what the potential is with the ROW because its not comparing apples with apples or oranges with oranges in the pre and post Brexit landscape.
We leave without a deal and the country will go on onto flourish within the next 5-10 year to our fullest potential because what the EU does not have a monopoly on is the UK as a whole, the people, the talent, the talent to evolve and adapt and progress as some of the highest rates in the world. A centre of excellence in finance that punched way above its weight for years before and during the EU, not because of it. Talent and R&D in scores of economic sectors that are not only important to the UK but the world which makes the UK relevant to the world.
You quickly glossed over the Tech Hub that London and UK is becoming and already is, thats the future and countries evolve to match whats going on around them and globally. You think the kids of Swindon in 5 years will be looking to work in a car plant or with the way the worlds going do you think they might just expand their horizons outside that by the way the worlds going?
If you think the UK is gonna stand still within the EU and not flourish then you don't know enough about the UK.
Ultimately in lifes large tapestry this is going to be a tiny stitch.
Of course they don't and I don't think you've read or understood my initial post on the point properly if that's the case you're arguing.
They want Brexit to be a failure. So the moment we take No Deal off of the table then they will only offer us:
- A deal that cannot possibly get past parliament, or
- A deal that is terrible for us
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
1. All over the world countries trade most with nations close to them. It is just the way it is.
2. Other EU nations trade a lot more with RoW than we do. The EU does not stop us trading with RoW. You were not able to outline any deregulation that would lead to increased exports. There would have to be a lot of increase to make up for losing the trade with the EU.
3. The "florish" and all that stuff is basically "Believe! And it will be!"
4. If anyone should be "glossing over" the Tech hub its you. It has florished within the EU. Many programmers coming from eu nations easily and quickly. That's not to say there isn't potential with no EU - Chinese and Indian programmers might make up the shortfall. But you have paperwork and hassel.
5. I don't think the UK is standing still in the EU. The EU doesn't really affect us too much. We can trade with RoW on better terms because of the EU trade deals. It provides a few laws on environmental stuff and some other good things. It is not holding us back as far as I can tell. If it was you could tell me how. That you can't is not your fault. People have lied to us all.
You're right global warming etc are bigger issues. But make no mistake it would be a step backward for the UK. Away from international cooperation, on things like climate change and trade. It is a pipe dream breed in the minds of some public school toffs who've miss-sold it to the masses.
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SpurMeUp
Les Howe
We're on the same page there then. If the EU don't want the UK to get a great deal (they never did and people were lied to telling them it would be easy to get a great deal), why would holding out the prospect of No Deal make a difference to the EU?
Boris is basically playing chicken with a lorry that doesn't mind if it ploughs through because its bigger.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
If the EU didn't care about no deal they would let us walk into the Abyss's, its hugely damaging to them anyone that thinks it isn't is deluded.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Spot on, they do not want to see us leave with no deal and the fear that we will is the thing that has brought them back into discussion.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
They are letting us "walk into the abyss" as you put it. That is the UKs choice. No one is controlling us, we are choosing. It's almost like you think the EU has to look after us. Why wouldn't the EU let us drop out and damage our economy? It's our choice and if it makes the EU look good then they win.
What discussions are you talking about? Where are they taking place?
JerusalemMan
Chris Perry
We do make a pretty sizeable contribution to their budget. It's not going to be covered by increases from Greece, Slovenia and Estonia
Well the last couple of weeks has seen a complete turnaround from "There will be no more negotiation, there is nothing to discuss" to both Merkel and Poundland Napoleon talking about how we can alter the backstop to get through parliament.
So the threat of No Deal has already made changes to the negotiation.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
. All over the world countries trade most with nations close to them. It is just the way it is.
2. Other EU nations trade a lot more with RoW than we do. The EU does not stop us trading with RoW. You were not able to outline any degulation that would lead to increased exports. There would have to be a lot of increase to make up for losing the trade with the EU.Because I am not a HUGE trade and export expert and neither are you so lets not pretend anything here. But your first point is garbage, plenty of countries have major trade deals with countries miles + away. I was in Saskatoon this year on a mission to visit local companies and their exports to Pakistan and that part of the world if worth nearly 2.5bn. Two of our major export partners come from outside the EU, US and China both feature in the top 6 so plenty to do.
3. The "florish" and all that stuff is basically "Believe! And it will be!" Not really, the UK has a huge history of flourshing bar some down turns. Like I said earlier the UK suffered its fair share of down turns in the EU as have a number of EU nations, so its hardly a full proofed membership that you like to make out.
4. If anyone should be "glossing over" the Tech hub its you. It has florished within the EU. Many programmers coming from nations easily and quickly. That's not to say there isn't potential with no EU - Chinese and Indian programmers might make up the shortfall. But you have paperwork and hassel. Seeing as the major moves have happened post voting and talent is still arriving despite the dreaded B word and "uncertainty" kind dispels the project fear side of that. Paperwork and hassel is never as bad as you are making out, I have done it 4 times in 10 years and earned alot of money doing so. We want Chinese, Indian and Canadian because thats where the talent lies.
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Do you believe all this? All the trade data is wrong and nations don't trade most with neighbours? You don't need to be a trade expert. Just to use your own logic over a bias. Or look at what people who are "HUGE trade and export experts" say. Here you go https://www.pwc.co.uk/government-public-sector/assets/documents/pwc-the-gravity-model.pdf
Britian was a colonial power. Like nations in the EU we have no colony now. What downturns has the UK suffered within the EU? Pre-EU we had the 3 day week and shortages of electricity! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week The EU provided a place for previous colonial powers to maintain their strength by working together.
What "major moves"?
2. Other EU nations trade a lot more with RoW than we do. The EU does not stop us trading with RoW. You were not able to outline any degulation that would lead to increased exports. There would have to be a lot of increase to make up for losing the trade with the EU.Because I am not a HUGE trade and export expert and neither are you so lets not pretend anything here. But your first point is garbage, plenty of countries have major trade deals with countries miles + away. I was in Saskatoon this year on a mission to visit local companies and their exports to Pakistan and that part of the world if worth nearly 2.5bn. Two of our major export partners come from outside the EU, US and China both feature in the top 6 so plenty to do.
3. The "florish" and all that stuff is basically "Believe! And it will be!" Not really, the UK has a huge history of flourshing bar some down turns. Like I said earlier the UK suffered its fair share of down turns in the EU as have a number of EU nations, so its hardly a full proofed membership that you like to make out.
4. If anyone should be "glossing over" the Tech hub its you. It has florished within the EU. Many programmers coming from nations easily and quickly. That's not to say there isn't potential with no EU - Chinese and Indian programmers might make up the shortfall. But you have paperwork and hassel. Seeing as the major moves have happened post voting and talent is still arriving despite the dreaded B word and "uncertainty" kind dispels the project fear side of that. Paperwork and hassel is never as bad as you are making out, I have done it 4 times in 10 years and earned alot of money doing so. We want Chinese, Indian and Canadian because thats where the talent lies.
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Do you believe all this? All the trade data is wrong and nations don't trade most with neighbours? You don't need to be a trade expert. Just to use your own logic over a bias. Or look at what people who are "HUGE trade and export experts" say. Here you go https://www.pwc.co.uk/government-public-sector/assets/documents/pwc-the-gravity-model.pdf
Britian was a colonial power. Like nations in the EU we have no colony now. What downturns has the UK suffered within the EU? Pre-EU we had the 3 day week and shortages of electricity! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week The EU provided a place for previous colonial powers to maintain their strength by working together.
What "major moves"?
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SpurMeUp
Les Howe
The NHS costs £134b a year.
Net contribution to the EU is £9b. And we get far more than that back in free trade. It is not a massive amount of money. It won't threaten the EU's ability to function.