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Pele - the fraud

Daisuk

Daisuk

Dimitar Berbatov
I've been discussing Maradona vs Pele endlessly with a mate of mine, and can't for the life of me understand how anyone can say Pele was a better footballer than Maradona, let alone be considered to be the greatest ever! He looked a decent baller, but ultimately wasn't even the best guy on the great Brazil team in the 60's. Look at these stats. Pretty astounding stuff.

Pele being made out to be the greatest footballer ever is quite simply a hoax!

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Backers of Pele always show the "incredible" goal stat he has, but shown up for what it is, lots of goals in a non professional league - hardly impressive or anywhere near GOAT-worthy!

Oh, and sorry about every stat coming twice, not sure why Twitter embedding works that way.
 
Wtf is this? Next you’ll be saying Jesus didn’t exist.

I think the GOAT discussion will aways be subjective when it’s across eras, even the Messi Ronaldo debate divides people and they play in the same league!

I’d never really paid attention to Pele’s stats, perhaps subconsciously thinking they were whether massaged or less relevant as not in a European league. Pele’s appeal to me was more about the way he played and was outstanding in his era, almost like ‘before Elvis there was nothing’. Another generation domestically would cite George Best, despite not playing in a World Cup and having a relatively short career. As the game has become more professional, tactical and over analysed Messi and Ronaldo are in a class of their own in the stats, trophies and aesthetics. Messi has the assist count, Ronaldo is now proving himself in his third top league.

The one I defer to is Maradona, despite his cheating and perhaps linked to my admiration of non conformist natural talents in sport like Alex Higgins and John McEnroe. As much as football is a team sport he came to Europe and took Napoli to 2 league titles and as close as singlehandedly won a World Cup, imagine what he could have achieved if he’d looked after himself!
 
Pele also has the advantage of playing in a time when most footballers were brick, to be fair Maradona played in a time when most of the opposition were overweight smokers and drinkers.

Messi and Ronaldo are at another level, then above them you have Zlatan.
 
I'd rather listen to people who were around at the time rather than look at a bunch of stats and biased logic. Anyone I've heard who talk about Pele talk about a true great and most say he was the greatest of all time. They also talk about his influence beyond football which I have seen in my lifetime. Pele transcends football in the same way Ali transcended boxing and Elvis transcended music.

As for the football, the fella won 3 World Cups and they were 12 years apart. That's a remarkable achievement in itself. That he won his first as a 17 year old as the star in a formidable Brazilian team says a lot. What do most people achieve when they are 17? Look at the famous goal in the final where he flicked it past himself and scored. Beautiful. The 1970 team was outstanding. Carlos Alberto, Jairzinho, Rivelino, Tostao, Gerson...wow. That game against Italy is a thing of beauty, the last goal is just the purest goal - it's what I think of when I talk about how I love seeing football played. That team was exceptional and was one of the reasons I fell in love with football. It was before my time but listening to my dad and uncles talking about them like they were men from another planet playing a brand of football never seen on this side of the world before. Pele was undeniably their talisman which, in itself, says a lot about how good he was.

Was he the GOAT? There isn't really enough footage for me to judge. But there's arguments for and against everyone. Maradona did it for maybe 4 years and only at one club. GHod knows what he was putting into his body at the time. Messi never did it at a World Cup. Ronaldo never won a World Cup. Ditto Cruyff. Best burned bright and then burned out. Likewise, you could make an argument for any of them.

But I'd never dream of calling any of them a fraud. All were/are tremendous talents and part of the reason I fell in love with and continue to love football.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I'd rather listen to people who were around at the time rather than look at a bunch of stats and biased logic. Anyone I've heard who talk about Pele talk about a true great and most say he was the greatest of all time. They also talk about his influence beyond football which I have seen in my lifetime. Pele transcends football in the same way Ali transcended boxing and Elvis transcended music.

As for the football, the fella won 3 World Cups and they were 12 years apart. That's a remarkable achievement in itself. That he won his first as a 17 year old as the star in a formidable Brazilian team says a lot. What do most people achieve when they are 17? Look at the famous goal in the final where he flicked it past himself and scored. Beautiful. The 1970 team was outstanding. Carlos Alberto, Jairzinho, Rivelino, Tostao, Gerson...wow. That game against Italy is a thing of beauty, the last goal is just the purest goal - it's what I think of when I talk about how I love seeing football played. That team was exceptional and was one of the reasons I fell in love with football. It was before my time but listening to my dad and uncles talking about them like they were men from another planet playing a brand of football never seen on this side of the world before. Pele was undeniably their talisman which, in itself, says a lot about how good he was.

Was he the GOAT? There isn't really enough footage for me to judge. But there's arguments for and against everyone. Maradona did it for maybe 4 years and only at one club. GHod knows what he was putting into his body at the time. Messi never did it at a World Cup. Ronaldo never won a World Cup. Ditto Cruyff. Best burned bright and then burned out. Likewise, you could make an argument for any of them.

But I'd never dream of calling any of them a fraud. All were/are tremendous talents and part of the reason I fell in love with and continue to love football.
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Great post.
Peel, Ali and for me nicklaus are three sportsmen who's legacy transcends their sport and will never be surpassed.
 
glasgowspur said:
Great post.
Peel, Ali and for me nicklaus are three sportsmen who's legacy transcends their sport and will never be surpassed.
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I love Nicklaus and he's such a class act but would probably put Woods ahead of him in terms of how he has transcended golf.
 
I just think the stats in this case are quite important if we're going to discuss Pele as a potential "greatest of all time". The fact that the vast majority of his goals were scored in an amateur league and in friendlies suggests that one should maybe not emphasise his "fantastic stats" as a point in case for him being the GOAT - everytime I discuss this with people who are great fans of Pele, they bring up his goal scoring record. Well, maybe it wasn't so impressive afterall. Jamie Vardy banged in a lot of goal in the Conference league as well.

Maradona and Pele can both go fudge themselves though, as Messi is head and shoulders above them both, both in terms of stats, trophies won and overall ability. ;) The fact that he hasn't won a World Cup is pretty much beyond the point, in my opinion, seems like a very random measurement of a player's ability to me, but yeah, pointless going down that road.

Anyways, just saw this on my Twitter feed this morning and found it interesting so thought I'd post. :)
 
DeanoAustin said:
I love Nicklaus and he's such a class act but would probably put Woods ahead of him in terms of how he has transcended golf.
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Can't stand woods, admire his achievements, ability and niave fool I was his family life before it all came crashing down on him.
The hype around him is very off putting for me and the way he treats fans is awful.

Also nicklaus dominated across generations of great players. From palmer to seve through player, Watson, trevino, he saw them all off.
 
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