Paris

[Superted]

I think that's more down to the greater access to knowledge and also the greater levels of affluence though. The more better off people are, the less they need religion.

 

[scaramanga]

I think that's more down to the greater access to knowledge and also the greater levels of affluence though. The more better off people are, the less they need religion.

Partly that, but from the fairly small sample size I have (the kids taught by my wife and her colleagues) there's definitely an element of religion seeming ridiculous in it too. When I was a kid you were either religious or not totally sold on the idea - that was about as strong as atheism got.

Now, kids are roughly 80-90% in the "religion is ridiculous, have you heard some of the stupid **** they believe?" camp.

 

[AuroRaman]

Now, kids are roughly 80-90% in the "religion is ridiculous, have you heard some of the stupid **** they believe?" camp.

Sadly there's a lot of deeply religious kids (cough cough, Middle-America) that believe the same about Science.

As I said to you before, I have no problem with anyone feeling a sense of clarity, community and inspiration from religious faith. In my experience many have used their faith for the greater good both in personal development and altruism. Just don't tell me that that Noah fit in every single animal on the planet in a large enough ark and without a ****ing bloodbath occurring!

 

[scaramanga]

Sadly there's a lot of deeply religious kids (cough cough, Middle-America) that believe the same about Science.

As I said to you before, I have no problem with anyone feeling a sense of clarity, community and inspiration from religious faith. In my experience many have used their faith for the greater good both in personal development and altruism. Just don't tell me that that Noah fit in every single animal on the planet in a large enough ark and without a ****ing bloodbath occurring!

Unfortunately, I'm sure there are at least as many (if not, more) who use their religion to the opposite effect.

To my knowledge there has been very little "badness" done in the name of atheism/humanism.

 

[AuroRaman]

Unfortunately, I'm sure there are at least as many (if not, more) who use their religion to the opposite effect.

To my knowledge there has been very little "badness" done in the name of atheism/humanism.

[-X Bro do you even care about the carbon footprint of sending a probe into space 11 years ago to land on a comet travelling at a speed of 55,000 kmh [-(

 

[scaramanga]

[-X Bro do you even care about the carbon footprint of sending a probe into space 11 years ago to land on a comet travelling at a speed of 55,000 kmh [-(

Actually, no!

I'm one of those that believes we will technology our way out of the global warming problem rather than all pulling on hair shirts.

 

[AuroRaman]

Actually, no!

I'm one of those that believes we will technology our way out of the global warming problem rather than all pulling on hair shirts.

 

[scaramanga]

View attachment 2251

I watched that film purely because Kylie gives a carrot head. She was such a childhood crush.........

 

[AuroRaman]

I watched that film purely because Kylie gives a carrot head. She was such a childhood crush.........

Oh man, she was superb in that. I genuinely thought we were going to get married. I ended up meeting her at a camera gig when she was performing, not such a pleasant experience in all honesty. The other girl was pretty damn hot if I remember correctly as well.

See kids, science is fun \o/

 

[scaramanga]

Oh man, she was superb in that. I genuinely thought we were going to get married. I ended up meeting her at a camera gig when she was performing, not such a pleasant experience in all honesty. The other girl was pretty damn hot if I remember correctly as well.

See kids, science is fun \o/

There were other people in that film?

 

[LutonSpurs]

The free speech concept is riddled with double standards. Example: Holocaust denial is loathsome. But should it be someone's right to profess this belief in a society that has free speech? Or should it remain a crime?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I have been pleased with the response of the British muslims and their aim to distance themselves from the extremists. I just hop the is an ongoing commitment to this in conjunction with the security services.

When a section of society has a problem part of the cure is that section of society to over come it. It was the same with football hooligans and how we as a community took steps to ostracise the thugs.

 

[elltrev]

Sorry if I'm going to derail this thread a bit but I'm interested in the hypocrisy of the Je Suis Charlie campaign.

The fact is that depicting Mohammed is considered an insult to Muslims, no? Is it similar to say a depiction of an erect penis? Or a flange?

Similarly would it be "satire" to show a cartoon of say Rolf Harris having his way with a minor?

Of course not. Should such a thing happen then there would be outrage.

So I don't agree with the notion that newspapers/magazines should be allowed to depict Mohammed. Muslims clearly find it an insult in the way we would find a depiction of paedos an insult.

Why poke the bear? For "satire"? Give me a break. That's just an excuse for bullies. Satire needn't be cruel or insulting.

(Note - I'm not excusing the gunmen at all, but let's not get too carried away in the Je Suis Charlie movement. We have censorship, we have decency laws and they are needed.)

Interesting points Superted, and I've been thinking along these lines recently too.

To take an extreme example, genuine question - what if the front cover showed a cartoon of Maddy McCann's Dad raping her in their cellar at home? Would people think that should be against the law or not?

And as a separate point I too question the purpose or value in mocking Mohammed, given how offensive the vast majority of Musilms find it. Don't think Scaramanga's addressed that at all - don't think mocking cartoons are the most effective way of encouraging people to abandon their deeply held religious beliefs.

 

[elltrev]

What I want to see / read is a two-sided debate between Muslims on what the Koran instructs Muslims to do in response to blasphemy, apostasy, not believing in Allah etc. I read some people quoting the Koran to show that it never encourages violence and killing, and others quoting the Koran to show that it does. Surely with Islam Extremism being such a salient topic, and with us being in the age of information and communication, this shouldn't be hard to find and put to bed?!

Any recommendations for reading?

I'd then like to see a comparison between the Koran and the Bible and/or Torah in the above respect.

Any reading anyone? Can't believe this kind of analysis doesn't exist...

 

[LutonSpurs]

Any reading anyone? Can't believe this kind of analysis doesn't exist...

I will try and link some stuff. There is a brilliant book by Jonathan A C Brown called Misquoting Muhammed. Available on Amazon. It does justice to most of the controversial issues around Islam and the Muslim Prophet. Please do read if you want to see a moderate and academic understanding of issues.

 

[elltrev]

I will try and link some stuff. There is a brilliant book by Jonathan A C Brown called Misquoting Muhammed. Available on Amazon. It does justice to most of the controversial issues around Islam and the Muslim Prophet. Please do read if you want to see a moderate and academic understanding of issues.

Great first suggestion, will be buying this - thanks.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

Any reading anyone? Can't believe this kind of analysis doesn't exist...

With each of those religions, there's more than just the holy books, in Islam for example there is the hadiths - the alleged sayings and actions of the Mohammed - which date from around 200 years or so after Muhammed died. So it's kind of Ahmed knew Abdul who knew Iqbal etc etc who knew one of the companions of the prophet and heard him say once: "Whenever anyone of you makes water he should not hold his penis or clean his private parts with his right hand. (And while drinking) one should not breathe in the drinking utensil ." Wonderfully sound advice! There's thousands of them, some accepted by all Muslims, some not - as obviously differing factions could magic up a hadith in order to justify their view point.

And like Christianity, what is actually Islam is actually a bunch of scholars sitting around together and deciding what it is - and there are different schools of thought. And anyone - anyone - can set themselves up as an Iman and start preaching any brand of Islam they like.

Basically, if you wanted to make the case that Islam is a violent and conquering religion, you could find justification for this, but if you wanted to make the case it was peaceful, you could also find such a case. There isn't one Islam, Christianity or Judaism - the most relevant question at the moment is why is there a violent Islam spreading around the world and causing many problems and what can be done about this?

A book I thought was fair but others may disagree is "Why I Am Not a Muslim,". by Ibn Warraq, and also read the Quran as well, it's a relatively short book compared to the Bible. The translation by M. A. S. Abdel Haleem was good I thought. I ended up quite liking Mohammed when I read it. Wants to take another wife - gets a divine revelation saying he can do so - that's my kind of guy!

 

[glorygloryeze]

With each of those religions, there's more than just the holy books, in Islam for example there is the hadiths - the alleged sayings and actions of the Mohammed - which date from around 200 years or so after Muhammed died. So it's kind of Ahmed knew Abdul who knew Iqbal etc etc who knew one of the companions of the prophet and heard him say once: "Whenever anyone of you makes water he should not hold his penis or clean his private parts with his right hand. (And while drinking) one should not breathe in the drinking utensil ." Wonderfully sound advice! There's thousands of them, some accepted by all Muslims, some not - as obviously differing factions could magic up a hadith in order to justify their view point.

And like Christianity, what is actually Islam is actually a bunch of scholars sitting around together and deciding what it is - and there are different schools of thought. And anyone - anyone - can set themselves up as an Iman and start preaching any brand of Islam they like.

Basically, if you wanted to make the case that Islam is a violent and conquering religion, you could find justification for this, but if you wanted to make the case it was peaceful, you could also find such a case. There isn't one Islam, Christianity or Judaism - the most relevant question at the moment is why is there a violent Islam spreading around the world and causing many problems and what can be done about this?

A book I thought was fair but others may disagree is "Why I Am Not a Muslim,". by Ibn Warraq, and also read the Quran as well, it's a relatively short book compared to the Bible. The translation by M. A. S. Abdel Haleem was good I thought. I ended up quite liking Mohammed when I read it. Wants to take another wife - gets a divine revelation saying he can do so - that's my kind of guy!

...or a better translation: why do repressive and violent 'Islamic' Governments/Militant groups keep getting installed/propped up/supported by Western Democracies?

 

[Bonsaiboy]

...or a better translation: why do repressive and violent 'Islamic' Governments/Militant groups keep getting installed/propped up/supported by Western Democracies?

ISIS, Boko Harem, Al Qaeda, Al Shabaab... to name but a few - which of these are being supported and propped up Western Democracies?

 

[elltrev]

With each of those religions, there's more than just the holy books, in Islam for example there is the hadiths - the alleged sayings and actions of the Mohammed - which date from around 200 years or so after Muhammed died. So it's kind of Ahmed knew Abdul who knew Iqbal etc etc who knew one of the companions of the prophet and heard him say once: "Whenever anyone of you makes water he should not hold his penis or clean his private parts with his right hand. (And while drinking) one should not breathe in the drinking utensil ." Wonderfully sound advice! There's thousands of them, some accepted by all Muslims, some not - as obviously differing factions could magic up a hadith in order to justify their view point.

And like Christianity, what is actually Islam is actually a bunch of scholars sitting around together and deciding what it is - and there are different schools of thought. And anyone - anyone - can set themselves up as an Iman and start preaching any brand of Islam they like.

Basically, if you wanted to make the case that Islam is a violent and conquering religion, you could find justification for this, but if you wanted to make the case it was peaceful, you could also find such a case. There isn't one Islam, Christianity or Judaism - the most relevant question at the moment is why is there a violent Islam spreading around the world and causing many problems and what can be done about this?

A book I thought was fair but others may disagree is "Why I Am Not a Muslim,". by Ibn Warraq, and also read the Quran as well, it's a relatively short book compared to the Bible. The translation by M. A. S. Abdel Haleem was good I thought. I ended up quite liking Mohammed when I read it. Wants to take another wife - gets a divine revelation saying he can do so - that's my kind of guy!

Thanks for the response. I'm aware of the Hadiths but don't know much about them - interesting intro, would be interested to read in more depth about how they came about. And no doubt everything is open to interpretation - in part that's why I'd like to see opposing interpretations debating each other on those different interpretations.

Agree that the question as to why a violent form of Islam is spreading is interesting, but I would have thought it's largely driven by perceived injustices against Muslims - or is that too simplistic?

I did try and read the Koran a few years ago, but gave up after a couple of pages as I couldn't bear the content - as someone who wasn't raised religiously, the writing style and constant references to how great GHod is were like nails on a chalkboard. Maybe I'll try again some day as I'd like to have that knowledge.