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*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Wolverhampton Wanderers ***

thfcsteff said:
We are absolutely rudderless.
How we got here will remain a topic of conversation on this forum quite possibly for several years, but here we are, rudderless. The manager is unable to affect games and unwilling to compromise his 'ideals' for points, the players seem estranged from each other (as though they haven't met), the enthusiasm to play has deserted us, the team 'leaders' lost their compasses months ago...it says something when you can look back and say that at CB this season, Archie Gray has looked more defensively solid than Cristian Romero.
Ange has gone whatever happens IMO...
Click to expand...
He knows he is done
 
thfcsteff said:
I actually hold a huge -and I mean HUGE- amount of contempt and anger towards Levy, Munn, and Lange. Their 'stewardship' during Ange's time here has been every bit as naive as the manager's, and they have consistently left Ange out to dry/take the brick/suck it up. For me, unless there is a serious shift in the supportive footballing roles, we will continue to make the same mistakes and go nowhere beyond being a talent generator.
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what would you have liked to see done differently?

its not uncommon for the only media presence from a club to be the manager and players

they have certainly backed him on transfers, and given him time
 
Gutter Boy said:
Why on earth is he still here though is the question.

It genuinely feels like corruption now. It's got well beyond incompetence. It's like someone is shorting us to make some money out of this.
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It is the big question. I am someone who absolutely wanted the manager to have at least three quarters of his full squad back to see what we could do then, I won't shy away from that, however I have consistently been critical of the Munn/Lange affair and how they have basically left Ange out to dry on several levels (with Levy in the background of course). There have been critical times in the season to make decisions and we have not, instead shunting Ange out to deal with it. Somewhere in this most fudged up of Venn diagrams, Ange has lost the players. My feeling is that it happened when he had to start mitigating against injuries. I think the players became bewildered TBH. Regardless, the net result is that Ange is done, the players look done, our playing foundations currently look like they're supported by a layer of strawberry blancmange, and this mess is deep. I think Ange's only role right now is to be a punching bag/deflect blows from others above him.
 
Gutter Boy said:
It will do. Like Poch taking over from Sherwood. Or Burkinshaw from Neill. There's so much potential in this squad once it receives some decent coaching and man management.
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You forget Poch had to exorcise some of our "top players" from the squad he inherited.
Clear out maddison, Romero, son and mason and I might believe it.
 
thfcsteff said:
I actually hold a huge -and I mean HUGE- amount of contempt and anger towards Levy, Munn, and Lange. Their 'stewardship' during Ange's time here has been every bit as naive as the manager's, and they have consistently left Ange out to dry/take the brick/suck it up. For me, unless there is a serious shift in the supportive footballing roles, we will continue to make the same mistakes and go nowhere beyond being a talent generator.
Click to expand...

I blame them for a lack of dynamic, not seeing the manager out of his depth and acting, I can forgive the appointment because there is no certainties in this world, but its been clear a few months now that this football style was massively exposed at the PL level, suicide football

And I wanted this guy to work, we all did, but it was a wrong guy at the wrong club. You can see the mood a mile off in the camp now, its laid bare every goal we concede and FT whistle. These players checked out weeks ago
 
thfcsteff said:
I actually hold a huge -and I mean HUGE- amount of contempt and anger towards Levy, Munn, and Lange. Their 'stewardship' during Ange's time here has been every bit as naive as the manager's, and they have consistently left Ange out to dry/take the brick/suck it up. For me, unless there is a serious shift in the supportive footballing roles, we will continue to make the same mistakes and go nowhere beyond being a talent generator.
Click to expand...

Yet good managers tend to bristle and revolt against being managed from above.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I blame them for a lack of dynamic, not seeing the manager out of his depth and acting, I can forgive the appointment because there is no certainties in this world, but its been clear a few months now that this football style was massively exposed at the PL level, suicide football

And I wanted this guy to work, we all did, but it was a wrong guy at the wrong club. You can see the mood a mile off in the camp now, its laid bare every goal we concede and FT whistle. These players checked out weeks ago
Click to expand...

We should all want the manager to succeed no matter who it is.
Their success is our success, their failures our failures.
I never expected ange to succeed, but then I don't think we know what success would be for us and IMHO that is a big issue.
 
Baleforce said:
what would you have liked to see done differently?

its not uncommon for the only media presence from a club to be the manager and players

they have certainly backed him on transfers, and given him time
Click to expand...

Back in the winter I'd like to have seen more 'placed' media with Lange/Munn outlining the process. In January, we should've had further attaking signings lined up IMMEDIATELY, not just cheap risk-free punts in the last mins of the window.Having got Kinsky so quickly it was expected. Last summer I'd like to have seen us edge the fiunds a bit more and sign Eze as well as Gray and Bergvall. I would not have got Odobert, especially as we have Moore coming through. I'd like to have seen us sign that extra CB in the summer as well, might've allowedus to bring Romero back from the summer/short pre-season a little better plus givenus better coverage. I'd also like (and this is hindsight) to have had not overhauled the medical department so drastically; the footballing directorship have to carry the can for that debacle, that is a clear fudge-up on their part. Finally, I'd like to have seen someone savvy enough at the club to take Ange aside, tell him to sit out a conference or two (especially tight after Thursdays) and claim 'under the weather' or something and put Wells up for a couple of conferences here and there, feeding him a script to recite and thus deflecting from the mess.
 
glasgowspur said:
You forget Poch had to exorcise some of our "top players" from the squad he inherited.
Clear out maddison, Romero, son and mason and I might believe it.
Click to expand...

The 3 with reported attitude issues. But he also rescued the likes of Rose and Dembele from the scrap heap and made them world beaters.

I wouldn't throw anyone out till they've been re-evaluated by the next guy. I don't think we can under-estimate how amateur hour the last 2 years have been.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Yet good managers tend to bristle and revolt against being managed from above.
Click to expand...

I'd say that the key is in the trust of that relationship. Plenty of good managers work with upper management well. Look at Clop, albeit he had to 'break' them re: Coutinho and force them to make sure the money was reinvested (this after convincing them it was best to sell him). Not even Poch could get Levy to do something like that! Ange was never coming in with anything close to that power.
 
thfcsteff said:
We are absolutely rudderless.
How we got here will remain a topic of conversation on this forum quite possibly for several years, but here we are, rudderless. The manager is unable to affect games and unwilling to compromise his 'ideals' for points, the players seem estranged from each other (as though they haven't met), the enthusiasm to play has deserted us, the team 'leaders' lost their compasses months ago...it says something when you can look back and say that at CB this season, Archie Gray has looked more defensively solid than Cristian Romero.
Ange has gone whatever happens IMO...
Click to expand...
I think rudderless is a good description. Most are guys who has probably been told where to run and when to run for their entire career from their own Clipboard Charlie. Then you come to a team with apparently a lot of freedom, which suits some players perfectly (Bergvall) and some very good (Kulusevski, Spence). While others suffer from it requires using your brain and your eyes. Something players like Romero and Johnson looks like they're having problems doing. You can even pass as a professional footballer having no other capabilities than those two things as long as you use them. Just look at Ben Davies. I won't say Son has an Eriksen level overview but he knows how to pick out a clever pass. But when every single feck of them stand off with their hands down their shorts, waiting for the 32-year old not-exactly-Ronaldinho-level to create something, it really, really grinds my gears.

Regarding the defense, I really don't know what to argue. It's incomprehensible and beyond my limitation to try to make sense of as I have never in my illustrious lowest tier career played in defense, other that that it doesn't look very good. I think there is potential for improvement there.
 
glasgowspur said:
We should all want the manager to succeed no matter who it is.
Their success is our success, their failures our failures.
I never expected ange to succeed, but then I don't think we know what success would be for us and IMHO that is a big issue.
Click to expand...

Of course but I think Spurs is probably IMO the most politicised club in the league fan wise, there is an underbelly of people (not on here, but there is an element of it) where fans are almost waiting for failure to be vocal and jump over it, we are by far the worst club for that, if its not the team, its the stadium in that respect. Their is a veil of negativity round this club currently and I think in part the fans are playing their part.

As for what is success, I think most of us on here were pretty balanced on what success is and that was small steps forward, many on here said "I would take a step back to go forward" but this is not that, this is as bad as I have seen it at Spurs
 
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