OMT - *** Tottenham Hotspur v some Scouse team ***

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ok but he also took Dortmund to a champions league Final, beating a Jose Mourinho Madrid along the way.

The question was asked earlier in the thread which players has he improved? At Liverpool, aside maybe Roberto Firmino, it is difficult to make a case but at Dortmund the list is lengthy. Robert Lewandoski was about to join Blackburn before Klopp snapped him up and turned him into a world class striker. Ilkay Gungdowan was relatively unknown. Hummels and Subotic similarly may disagree with when we question his coaching of defenders.

In the season he took over from Rodgers he led them to 2 cup finals. In his first full season he took them to a Champions league spot at the expense of Arsenal and Man Utd in the league. All with a modest net spend.

I still think he is a top class manager and I am glad he is out of reach for both Arsenal and Chelsea. I am as pleased as anyone to have finally beaten Liverpool but I just wouldn't read too much into their current plight.

Did he have the same coaching team?

First thing that occurs to me is that maybe there was some genuis coach working under him at Dortmund who didnt come to Pool.

Because the difference is marked, and it makes me wonder just how much of Dortmunds success was Klopps.

 

[Jordinho]

Did he have the same coaching team?

First thing that occurs to me is that maybe there was some genuis coach working under him at Dortmund who didnt come to Pool.

Because the difference is marked, and it makes me wonder just how much of Dortmunds success was Klopps.

I think he had some clever people in charge of transfers at Dortmund.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Did he have the same coaching team?

First thing that occurs to me is that maybe there was some genuis coach working under him at Dortmund who didnt come to Pool.

Because the difference is marked, and it makes me wonder just how much of Dortmunds success was Klopps.

I think he's a case of someone that was good for a previous generation - albeit very recent - not hasn't shown himself adaptable to the new one.

The teams that are succeeding now are versatile in their approach to formations and strategy. Klopp was one of the first to be really successful with the pressing game but he's still playing the exact same formation years later. 4-3-3, same old strategy, and then he wonders why his defenders are looking lost. I don't think it's anything to do with his coaching per se, it's more that other teams are exploiting the obvious gaps because they are moving on while he isn't.

Look at Poch. Quickly established a 3atb system for us once he realised that was how the league was moving and how Chelsea were getting a large amount of success with it, and then this year once our own pressing game is baked into the muscle memory, we've shown we can play on the counter just as well. Hell, even Wenger has shown some flexibility in formation choice. Adaptability was probably the biggest reason Fergie had the longevity that he did. Klopp just hasn't shown it.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So in one season his whole ethos went out of date?

Not sure I buy that. And if it is true, Im not sure theres much of a defence for Klopp either.

 

[Rorschach]

His defenders are crap would be the obvious explanation to me.

 

[Jordinho]

It does seem a bit like Klopp is unwilling to make the necessary adaptations. Wagner at Huddersfield worked under Klopp at Dortmund and he seems to be doing alright. Hopefully they give Liverpool a game this weekend.

 

[r-u-s-x]

His defenders are crap would be the obvious explanation to me.

he is the manager and decided to spunk 35M on AOC over a new CB so the fact their defenders are crap can also be laid at his door.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

he is the manager and decided to spunk 35M on AOC over a new CB so the fact their defenders are crap can also be laid at his door.

But do you belive they would even buy a decent one....

They were willing to pay crazy money for VVD who is decent but massively over rated

They also acknowledge that they looked at Sanchez but did follow it up

 

[FatBloke]

I think he had some clever people in charge of transfers at Dortmund.

I think that might be it. You have to build a defense, in a different way to putting together a midfield or attack. It's a combination of buying and coaching -- while a good coach can improve poor defenders, there's only so far that he can go. It's been said that Wenger got lucky with Arsenal, first inheriting one of the best defensive lines in Premier League history and then getting lucky with Scumbell and Cole, but hasn't managed to put together a good defense since. On the other hand, look at what Pulis does with mediocre resources -- identifies decent players, if not world-beaters, then makes the most of them.

So perhaps Klopp just isn't very good at identifying raw defensive talent, importantly, doesn't have a top-notch DoF/etc. to help out. Is Comolli still there? On the other hand, Poch seems to be able to spot a good defender and has some sort of magic full back sauce.

 

[Rorschach]

he is the manager and decided to spunk 35M on AOC over a new CB so the fact their defenders are crap can also be laid at his door.

Can't argue with that. He should have improved the back line and didn't.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Even if they really wanted VVD and wanted to keep the space for him they still need 2 new center backs. I quite like the look of Gomez so the only argument is buying someone new will stop his progress, if that's the case play him CB.

I know he is cheap but what the fudge is Klaven? Why give Lovren a new 4 year contract on 100K p/w who were they competing with? If you can't bid for VVD due to facing a transfer ban if you do why hope that Southampton will suddenly decide to sell even though they always said do one.

This is not hindsight - you could see this prior to the season starting. Its baffling

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think that might be it. You have to build a defense, in a different way to putting together a midfield or attack. It's a combination of buying and coaching -- while a good coach can improve poor defenders, there's only so far that he can go. It's been said that Wenger got lucky with Arsenal, first inheriting one of the best defensive lines in Premier League history and then getting lucky with Scumbell and Cole, but hasn't managed to put together a good defense since. On the other hand, look at what Pulis does with mediocre resources -- identifies decent players, if not world-beaters, then makes the most of them.

So perhaps Klopp just isn't very good at identifying raw defensive talent, importantly, doesn't have a top-notch DoF/etc. to help out. Is Comolli still there? On the other hand, Poch seems to be able to spot a good defender and has some sort of magic full back sauce.

I think your examples contradict your original statement.

Poorer quality players through coaching and management can become better defensive units.

Which leads to the obvious conclusion, its down to work on the training ground.

And, of course, its down to more than just the 3 or 4 players in front of the keeper.

Klopps set up quite obviously leaves the defensive badly exposed. Which makes it a flawed set up to start with, which land firmly on Klopp.

His defenders are also clearly not well drilled on their shape, and as such they end up with situations like Lovren looking silly thanks to Gomes playing people onside.

Again, that has to be on Klopp.

And, the players at his disposal are HIS. Yes, I know 3 played under Rodgers, but Klopp has been there long enough to not only train a defence, but acquire the players for it as well.

Finally, his treatment of Lovren is just shocking. He threw him under the bus to cover his own failings. And has essentially destroyed a player that has proven to be excellent under other management.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Finally, his treatment of Lovren is just shocking. He threw him under the bus to cover his own failings. And has essentially destroyed a player that has proven to be excellent under other management.

You could almost excuse this if he wanted to bomb him out but he just gave him a new 4 year deal on huge wages, will be difficult to shift him.

I know his reasons with Sakho but he was the best player they have in that position and if you have no intention of replacing him surely you can do something with him.

 

[Jordinho]

Finally, his treatment of Lovren is just shocking. He threw him under the bus to cover his own failings. And has essentially destroyed a player that has proven to be excellent under other management.

He was rubbish in France and rubbish most of his time at Southampton. Liverpool bought him on the back of a few months of good form, but that could have just as much to do with Fonte, Wanyama and Schneiderlin as Lovren himself.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

He was rubbish in France and rubbish most of his time at Southampton. Liverpool bought him on the back of a few months of good form, but that could have just as much to do with Fonte, Wanyama and Schneiderlin as Lovren himself.

Dont know the first thing about him in France. Always thought he looked good at SCBC.

If you are right though, it just reaffirms my point about the manager being responsible/making the difference, doesnt it?

 

[Jordinho]

Dont know the first thing about him in France. Always thought he looked good at SCBC.

If you are right though, it just reaffirms my point about the manager being responsible/making the difference, doesnt it?

I can only go by what I've read, but it seems Southampton fans didn't really mind him leaving.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I can only go by what I've read, but it seems Southampton fans didn't really mind him leaving.

but they still gave him a 4 year extension, I would expect the manager to be involved and rate him a bit unless it was purely a financial decision to stop him leaving on a free. if this is the case he is on 100K p/w selling will prove difficult.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I can only go by what I've read, but it seems Southampton fans didn't really mind him leaving.

Was that not because he agitated for a move?

Its always the way, as soon as a player acts up the fanbase generally switches from "He's one of our best players" to "Never rated him anyway" in an instant.

 

[FatBloke]

I think your examples contradict your original statement.

Poorer quality players through coaching and management can become better defensive units.

Which leads to the obvious conclusion, its down to work on the training ground.

And, of course, its down to more than just the 3 or 4 players in front of the keeper.

Klopps set up quite obviously leaves the defensive badly exposed. Which makes it a flawed set up to start with, which land firmly on Klopp.

His defenders are also clearly not well drilled on their shape, and as such they end up with situations like Lovren looking silly thanks to Gomes playing people onside.

Again, that has to be on Klopp.

And, the players at his disposal are HIS. Yes, I know 3 played under Rodgers, but Klopp has been there long enough to not only train a defence, but acquire the players for it as well.

Finally, his treatment of Lovren is just shocking. He threw him under the bus to cover his own failings. And has essentially destroyed a player that has proven to be excellent under other management.

You're right. My point ended up rather muddled.

What I meant to convey was that average defenders could be coached from 5/10 into an 8/10 overall defence, while good defenders could reach the heights of 10/10 with good coaching. However, take away the coaching and it's still a 7/10 defence...or worse, if it's bad coaching.

So I think the problem is threefold -- a bunch of average defenders (inherited from Rodgers), lack of good defensive coaching (Klopp), and not being able to successfully recruit better defenders (Klopp/board).

The upshot is that Liverpool have a 6/10 defence, while ours is 9/10.

It may be that Dortmund had better players for Klopp's system, or a stunning defensive coach.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I disagree that inherently good defenders make a good defence (albeit 7/10 vs 10/10).

Defending is down to way more than individual talent. And that "way more" comes from the way a manager instructs and organises his team.

Now I dont know why Liverpools defence is worse than Dortmunds, genuinely no idea - and I appreciate you are putting ideas out there.

But I do know why Liverpools is bad - and its all Klopp.

Klopp having no defensive shape in his team. Klopp having no midfield protection. Klopp not settling on a unit. Klopp clearly not working on defensive lines etc in training. Klopp screwing his players in public instead of helping them. Klopp not aquiring players to improve his defence (or DM?)...

Its all Klopp.