*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Leicester City ***

[thfcsteff]

Thing is Steff, fatigue will be a factor during a season whoever is in charge so will injuries. High intensity and short recovery times have become a fact of the PL. As a coach, you need to build that into your strategy. In a way it’s easier to accept that fatigue if expending all that energy is bringing with it some success. The problem with Ange is the worst of all worlds, fatigue and not enough to show for it. That combination then starts to affect him and the players mentally. We are seeing this already. I think there is only one way for this to go, which is why I think he should be replaced ASAP. Don’t understand what the club are thinking by not doing that which leads me to question Lange and Munn.

That is the main question to ask at this point. Because it is too easy to think that they're all, and I mean all, fuc-king up a sitution which everyone outside the club (and all it's daily intense contact with itself) can see. You would have to admit that the chances of that being the case are, at best, slim? Which doesn't answer the question as to why Levy, Munn, and Lange are not doing what everyone feels is obvious...unless you subscribe to the theory that there are some people who arer quite content to see this situation play out as they end up 'further' from the fire than ever before. Of course, subscribing to that theory then means that, essentially, someone is being accused of putting themselves and their needs before the football club. Of course that type of thinking could easily be seen as conspiratorial, in which case we're back at overall ignorance and ineptitude, which then throws into question how these people are actually given license to run the football club. And that's the thing for me amigo. As easy as the answers seem to be, there is SO much we don't know, that to assume anything is exactly that. Assumption. And if we're all honest, we make the assumptions which best suit what we either want to happen or believe should happen.

 

[billyiddo]

That is the main question to ask at this point. Because it is too easy to think that they're all, and I mean all, fuc-king up a sitution which everyone outside the club (and all it's daily intense contact with itself) can see. You would have to admit that the chances of that being the case are, at best, slim? Which doesn't answer the question as to why Levy, Munn, and Lange are not doing what everyone feels is obvious...unless you subscribe to the theory that there are some people who arer quite content to see this situation play out as they end up 'further' from the fire than ever before. Of course, subscribing to that theory then means that, essentially, someone is being accused of putting themselves and their needs before the football club. Of course that type of thinking could easily be seen as conspiratorial, in which case we're back at overall ignorance and ineptitude, which then throws into question how these people are actually given license to run the football club. And that's the thing for me amigo. As easy as the answers seem to be, there is SO much we don't know, that to assume anything is exactly that. Assumption. And if we're all honest, we make the assumptions which best suit what we either want to happen or believe should happen.

There's several potential reasons to explain the situation before you have to resort to conspiracies.

1) Levy has stepped away from football decisions, as is suggested by the appointment of Football Operations Director Munn (or whatever the title is) and is allowing him the freedom to run things as he sees fit.

2) Levy has learned from or doesn't want to repeat the "mistake" of firing managers too early/mid season

3) Whoever of Levy & Munn who has the final decision actually genuinely believes in Ange and his ability to take us forwards once we get through this sticky patch.


Regarding transfers, Ange has been on record saying he doesn't want short term fixes and his use of fringe players would back that point up. This limits our options to bringing forward long term targets like Kinsky or dropping down the priority targets list and potentially sacrificing long term squad building in certain positions to fill a squad place for the now. Now if the feeling around the club is that once injured players come back we will get ourselves out of the threat of relegation then the reasons for dropping down your priority list reduces somewhat which leaves pulling forward a summer transfer target. You'd like to think that any player we're targeting for the summer would be a player that is valued by their current club and hard to prise away mid season - if like Kinsky, they are playing at a level that means we can over pay to force the deal through without impacting the summer budget too much then I'm sure we'd do that- but if they're a key part of team that has half a season to play in a strong league then the amount we need to raise the deal by to force it through may well be unrealistic or so much that it would impact summer spending.

 

[thfcsteff]

There's several potential reasons to explain the situation before you have to resort to conspiracies.

1) Levy has stepped away from football decisions, as is suggested by the appointment of Football Operations Director Munn (or whatever the title is) and is allowing him the freedom to run things as he sees fit.

2) Levy has learned from or doesn't want to repeat the "mistake" of firing managers too early/mid season

3) Whoever of Levy & Munn who has the final decision actually genuinely believes in Ange and his ability to take us forwards once we get through this sticky patch.


Regarding transfers, Ange has been on record saying he doesn't want short term fixes and his use of fringe players would back that point up. This limits our options to bringing forward long term targets like Kinsky or dropping down the priority targets list and potentially sacrificing long term squad building in certain positions to fill a squad place for the now. Now if the feeling around the club is that once injured players come back we will get ourselves out of the threat of relegation then the reasons for taking either of those options reduces somewhat.

Billy.
Indeed, potential answers.
I think the truth was in the last part of my initial post. No-one knows. Rest-assured, I find conspiracy theories in life a bit much since I turned 21...

 

[billyiddo]

Billy.
I think the truth was in the last part of my initial post. No-one knows. Rest-assured, I find conspiracy theories in life a bit much since I turned 21...

Personally I'd say that the idea that people behind the scenes are either orchestrating or failing to address the situation in order to protect their reputation very much is a conspiracy.

 

[Muttley]

It wasnt even a break in reality
My mate was saying they need time adjust PSR so clubs can have more players which I actually think is a fair argument
Games aren’t that much longer in reality but there are at least 2 more European and they come in January after a condensed Christmas period
It’s too much for a normal squad and some clubs have chosen to have a lesser squad and ride it out

But there is clearly a challenge for the yoyo clubs between UEFA football and no UEFA football. We could be on a 5 year chronology of In, Out, In, Out, In. We're definitely doing the Hokey Cokey. There's also another small group that get in for one year only.

The real answer here is to cut the PL to 18 teams.

 

[thfcsteff]

Personally I'd say the idea that people behind the scenes orchestrating the situation in order to protect their reputation very much is a conspiracy

Of course.
Understandable. And not without merit.
Personally? You want to know what I believe? I believe that there are several people in place who know much more than we do and feel that (with that knowledge) we are better off with Postecoglu in place for now. WHY? Ah well, that's what we're all bickering about!

One point of clarification. Postecoglu did actually start mentioning January reinforcements in December. As much as I don't like assumptions, I'll go out on 'ass-limb' here and say that his quotes on the window during January probably don't accurately reflect anything other than closing ranks as best as he can manage.

Postecoglou: We will strengthen in January transfer window

Tottenham Hotspur boss planning to bring in players after being 'short in a couple of areas'

www.premierleague.com

 

[Muttley]

That is the main question to ask at this point. Because it is too easy to think that they're all, and I mean all, fuc-king up a sitution which everyone outside the club (and all it's daily intense contact with itself) can see. You would have to admit that the chances of that being the case are, at best, slim? Which doesn't answer the question as to why Levy, Munn, and Lange are not doing what everyone feels is obvious...unless you subscribe to the theory that there are some people who arer quite content to see this situation play out as they end up 'further' from the fire than ever before. Of course, subscribing to that theory then means that, essentially, someone is being accused of putting themselves and their needs before the football club. Of course that type of thinking could easily be seen as conspiratorial, in which case we're back at overall ignorance and ineptitude, which then throws into question how these people are actually given license to run the football club. And that's the thing for me amigo. As easy as the answers seem to be, there is SO much we don't know, that to assume anything is exactly that. Assumption. And if we're all honest, we make the assumptions which best suit what we either want to happen or believe should happen.

I still have a foot in the camp that one permanent January signing is par and two would be ideal. That second one also needs to be for our long term future, just like Kinsky seems to be. I also expected Reggie to leave in January when this season started.

I fully understand that when we're using a data model and trying to find the Solanke hand in glove fits of this world, it narrows you down massively in a January window. Our weakness as a club have been buying the wrong gloves for years and years. January should be about securing player that walk into your club on July 1st for pre-season training. I'd love to see one of them (e.g. Dibling)

At this point in January, I guess it comes down to loans only.

 

[thfcsteff]

I still have a foot in the camp that one permanent January signing is par and two would be ideal. That second one also needs to be for our long term future, just like Kinsky seems to be. I also expected Reggie to leave in January when this season started.

I fully understand that when we're using a data model and trying to find the Solanke hand in glove fits of this world, it narrows you down massively in a January window. Our weakness as a club have been buying the wrong gloves for years and years. January should be about securing player that walk into your club on July 1st for pre-season training. I'd love to see one of them (e.g. Dibling)

At this point in January, I guess it comes down to loans only.

I don't disagree.
These are extenuating circumstances.
I suppose we'll see how important the cup competitions are.
If we stick with the signing policy of the summer, I think it will say a lot about who will (or won't) be managing the club come August.

 

[stratnumberone]

I think it’s harsh to describe a midfield of Bentancur, Sarr, Biss, and Bergvall as one of the worst you’ve seen for a long time. That’s a lot of options. I don’t necessarily agree with your diagnosis of why we are conceding goals. It’s open yes but that’s a result of the tactics; we push the midfield up to press high with no one covering the space left. Seen it time and time again. See @DeanoAustin’s analysis above.

How do we know it’s tactical? because in the cup game against Liverpool we played differently and kept a clean sheet against one of the best teams in Europe currently. The double pivot were defending properly in front of the defence thereby denying the space to the Liverpool forwards. But it seems to me that Ange doesn’t like playing that way so reverts to type. Now that’s not on injuries, Ange is choosing to play that way. Which also results in more fatigue and mistakes as players are busting a gut to get back to cover.

On paper it’s harsh to say that about the midfield. However, the evidence adds up game by game, week by week, that it’s correct. I’ve heard people say that The Beatles as a band were greater than the sum of their parts. Well, Ange has created a midfield (and a whole team, to be fair) that is less than the sum of its parts. A reverse Beatles, if you will.

I’m amazed that anyone is still referring to a ‘relegation battle’ in the future tense because in reality we’ve been in one for weeks. I think that we are currently the worst team in the league: at least Saints is showing some fight and desire to win games. We are in big, big trouble and it’s time that everyone woke up to it.

 

[billyiddo]

Of course.
Understandable. And not without merit.
Personally? You want to know what I believe? I believe that there are several people in place who know much more than we do and feel that (with that knowledge) we are better off with Postecoglu in place for now. WHY? Ah well, that's what we're all bickering about!

One point of clarification. Postecoglu did actually start mentioning January reinforcements in December. As much as I don't like assumptions, I'll go out on 'ass-limb' here and say that his quotes on the window during January probably don't accurately reflect anything other than closing ranks as best as he can manage.

Postecoglou: We will strengthen in January transfer window

Tottenham Hotspur boss planning to bring in players after being 'short in a couple of areas'

www.premierleague.com

I think he is still in a job for one of the reasons I stated in my initial post - that once injuries clear up they think we will move away from the relegation battle and therefore it's a decision that doesn't need to be made now (avoiding the need for an interim coach if say Iraola won't jump mid season) and/or they still believe in his abilities to take us forwards.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think he is still in a job for one of the reasons I stated in my initial post - that once injuries clear up they think we will move away from the relegation battle and therefore it's a decision that doesn't need to be made now (avoiding the need for an interim coach if say Iraola won't jump mid season) and/or they still believe in his abilities to take us forwards.

I will go one further. I think that unless he wins a trophy too, he will be gone in the summer and all parties know it (said with the caveat that, you guessed it, I don't know!)...

 

[thfcsteff]

On paper it’s harsh to say that about the midfield. However, the evidence adds up game by game, week by week, that it’s correct. I’ve heard people say that The Beatles as a band were greater than the sum of their parts. Well, Ange has created a midfield (and a whole team, to be fair) that is less than the sum of its parts. A reverse Beatles, if you will.

I’m amazed that anyone is still referring to a ‘relegation battle’ in the future tense because in reality we’ve been in one for weeks. I think that we are currently the worst team in the league: at least Saints is showing some fight and desire to win games. We are in big, big trouble and it’s time that everyone woke up to it.

Whilst I do not think we are going down, I agree we are in big, big trouble and sincerely hope that where the club CAN control the immediate situation, everything possible is being done. I don't expect anything at Brentford, but it'd be a great time for a statement of recognition!!!

 

[billyiddo]

Of course.
Understandable. And not without merit.
Personally? You want to know what I believe? I believe that there are several people in place who know much more than we do and feel that (with that knowledge) we are better off with Postecoglu in place for now. WHY? Ah well, that's what we're all bickering about!

One point of clarification. Postecoglu did actually start mentioning January reinforcements in December. As much as I don't like assumptions, I'll go out on 'ass-limb' here and say that his quotes on the window during January probably don't accurately reflect anything other than closing ranks as best as he can manage.

Postecoglou: We will strengthen in January transfer window

Tottenham Hotspur boss planning to bring in players after being 'short in a couple of areas'

www.premierleague.com

Just to add having read the article i think these quotes from Ange support my point that he/we aren't after short term fixes, which limits what we can do to ease this current situation (eg persue long term targets)

 

[Kandi1977]

A system has to be able to cover mistakes as much as possible. For a lad to have that much space to run into is outrageous.

That's ridiculous. No one sets up the team on the basis of the team and players failing and making mistakes!

 

[Kandi1977]

Basically the only way Angeball can function properly in PL is if we can sign the next Rodri but even Guardiola hasn’t been able to do that with an unlimited transfer budget at his disposal, so I don’t know why Postecoglou cannot realise that what worked with the best team in SPL doesn’t necessarily do so in EPL (just as it didn’t for his Celtic team in CL).

City are about to though. See they are going for Ederson at Atalanta. I've been wanting him to Spurs for a couple of years! Closest thing I've seen to Rodri.

 

[DeanoAustin]

That's ridiculous. No one sets up the team on the basis of the team and players failing and making mistakes!

It's common sense. It's why it's considered risky to leave your centrebacks with the same number of players as the opposition have in attacking positions (1 v 1, 2 v 2 etc.) and why most teams usually have a man over defensively. It's why, in the first photo I posted above, you have at least one of Sarr or Bergvall covering the big area in the middle of the park. They provide a safer option for a pass but they are also in a position to get back in time if Leicester turn the ball over rather than having to sprint like Usain Bolt and still don't get there.

No plan is fool proof. It's about risk and reward. Unfortunately, our manager approaches football like a drunk gambler in a casino who wants to throw his life savings on black not realising there is a 50% chance that it comes in red.

 

[lurker of old]

The idea that we'll be fine once we get the players back is dangerous. It overlooks the fact that injuries are mounting up, and when we get one back, we may lose another. Ange has to be positive and say that things will improve, but he has also said we are playing with fire if we don't strengthen the squad NOW. If we have to sacrifice some of the summer budget to buy now, we have to do it. Of course if the club is fine with the idea of relegation, wait till summer for the perfect, "algorithm approved" players. Remember when WHam went down with players including Ferdinand? If a team is underperforming, they can collapse, which is where we are right now. Collapsing in a heap which will get worse every single week as more and more players divorce themselves from the car crash decide that they have a knock and need a rest.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The idea that we'll be fine once we get the players back is dangerous. It overlooks the fact that injuries are mounting up, and when we get one back, we may lose another. Ange has to be positive and say that things will improve, but he has also said we are playing with fire if we don't strengthen the squad NOW. If we have to sacrifice some of the summer budget to buy now, we have to do it. Of course if the club is fine with the idea of relegation, wait till summer for the perfect, "algorithm approved" players. Remember when WHam went down with players including Ferdinand? If a team is underperforming, they can collapse, which is where we are right now. Collapsing in a heap which will get worse every single week as more and more players divorce themselves from the car crash decide that they have a knock and need a rest.

The protest part is key for me
We have seen Richy come back, get injured, come back, get injured
That’s not unique to him either
I don’t see the gamble being one I’d wanna make for sure

 

[Muttley]

The protest part is key for me
We have seen Richy come back, get injured, come back, get injured
That’s not unique to him either
I don’t see the gamble being one I’d wanna make for sure

But if you get 2 back and lose 1, then you're 1 up. That is the positive mode we need to get ourselves back in.

Was trying to think who returns when. We know Romero and VDV are training. We saw Bissouma on the bench and we know Sarr's niggles have been well publicised. Madds didn't sound so bad either. Spence could be close as well. So next step is to get these 6 players involved. That is massive as we have a realistic 16 or 17 players.

Then Feb should be Werner, Johnson, Destiny and Venom with perhaps early March for Solanke and Odobert.

Richi is the outlier as he could return anytime and we could also lose him again.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Watch it again it's a terrible pass to make. There are two Leicester players close to Bentancur and no other support nearby. At best Bentancur gets the ball and probably passes it straight back to Porro. It's not a tired pass it's a stupid pass.

View attachment 18660

I'd say the room around Bentancur should be ample for a semi competent professional footballer to receive the ball in, Bentancur then has the option of going back to Porro, perhaps playing a pass to Kulu (depending on how the player near Porro presses, or he can turn with it and drive into the space in the centre of the pich and then play a ball across to (I think it is) Ben Davies or a ball over the top for Son.

A pass from Porro to Bentancur really shouldn't be a particularly dangerous one there and if passed and controlled in normal fashion could actually lead to a promising attack for Spurs

Most important of all though where on earth were our two other outfield players at this point? Especially other midfield player (I think that was Sarr at that point?)