***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Borussia Dortmund - first leg***

[Baleforce]

So you "have no issue with moaning on the internet" but you think somebody throwing a strop in a match thread (aka the Internet) showed a "pervasive attitude of entitlement - what have we become"...?

Makes sense to me too...

not the throwing of the strop, and not one in isolation

a symptom of a wider issue

 

[milo]

Wow...care to qualify that statement, perhaps using the team line-ups we've played in our away EL games up to this point?

How about the line up in our last European away game:

Vorm
Trippier
Alderweireld
Wimmer
Davies
Mason
Carroll
Son Heung-min
Eriksen
Alli
Chadli

 

[glorygloryeze]

How about the line up in our last European away game:

Vorm
Trippier
Alderweireld
Wimmer
Davies
Mason
Carroll
Son Heung-min
Eriksen
Alli
Chadli

Yes; and the ones before that?

 

[milo]

Yes; and the ones before that?

Anderlecht away

Lloris
Trippier
Alderweireld
Vertonghen
Davies
Dier
Dembélé
Townsend
Lamela
Eriksen
N'Jie

 

[glorygloryeze]

Anderlecht away

Lloris
Trippier
Alderweireld
Vertonghen
Davies
Dier
Dembélé
Townsend
Lamela
Eriksen
N'Jie

Good detail...got the other two as well?

 

[milo]

Good detail...got the other two as well?

I don't see what you are getting at. The original question was about people's team selection expectations for last night.
The fact that he played stronger sides away against Qarabag and Monaco, doesn't mean that he hasn't rotated or played weakened sides in Europe this season.

 

[milo]

I see that the Standard says tonight that Dier picked up a knock against Arsenal and that is why he did not travel. They say that he was going to be assessed today and tomorrow for Sunday's game.

 

[Bullet]

We should have focussed on the domestic cups, and thrown the EL early doors; much much easier to win those than the EL

 

[Modric THFC]

Anderlecht away

Lloris
Trippier
Alderweireld
Vertonghen
Davies
Dier
Dembélé
Townsend
Lamela
Eriksen
N'Jie

That was a losing team though. The midfield was still stronger than on thursday, And the team had an actual striker. I'd rather that team against Dortmund than the one we sent out.

Heres all our group stage line ups for anyone interested.

Qarabag (h)

Monaca (a)

Anderlecht (a)

Anderlecht (h)

Qarabag (a)

Monaco (h)

 

[StephenH]

We should have focussed on the domestic cups, and thrown the EL early doors; much much easier to win those than the EL

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - Palace rode their luck - and we missed out!
I agree though FA cup was a much better bet - the EL is simply a pain for EPL teams.

 

[milo]

That was a losing team though. The midfield was still stronger than on thursday, And the team had an actual striker. I'd rather that team against Dortmund than the one we sent out.

Heres all our group stage line ups for anyone interested.

Qarabag (h)

Monaca (a)

Anderlecht (a)

Anderlecht (h)

Qarabag (a)

Monaco (h)

That wasn't what we were discussing though. The question being discussed was was it reasonable to expect a full strength team to be selected last night. I think that because Poch has selected weakened side in the competition in some games, people should have at least been prepared for that possibility.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I don't see what you are getting at. The original question was about people's team selection expectations for last night.
The fact that he played stronger sides away against Qarabag and Monaco, doesn't mean that he hasn't rotated or played weakened sides in Europe this season.

Well, your statement was "anybody travelling away to a European tie expecting a full side is a fool".
We can see from the line-ups that out of 4 previous away sides (all against sides with much less quality than Dortmund) only the side he played vs Fiorentina was comparable in terms of the number of first-teamers absent from the staring line-up. We were playing a tricky FA Cup after that Fiorentina game, a game certainly trickier (on paper) than the next PL game vs Villa. After Monaco we were playing Swansea away. After Anderlecht we were playing Bournemouth, after Quarabag we were playing Chelsea(!).

So the idea that seemed to come from your statement that it was "foolish" for anyone to expect a full side (or at least a side with more first-teamers than we saw yesterday) doesn't follow from what we have seen in the previous matches.

If you'd said something along the lines of "when you see where we are in the table" or "we have started to look fatigued" and that you can understand why Poch changed the line-up in the way that he did given our new priorities then that'd be fair enough.

But your statement, especially given the line-ups that actually HAVE been selected for away EL games that have preceded far trickier matches (on paper) than the Villa one coming up, just comes off as extremely mean-spirited towards the fans that DID make the effort to travel.

 

[milo]

Well, your statement was "anybody travelling away to a European tie expecting a full side is a fool".
We can see from the line-ups that out of 4 previous away sides (all against sides with much less quality than Dortmund) only the side he played vs Fiorentina was comparable in terms of the number of first-teamers absent from the staring line-up. We were playing a tricky FA Cup after that Fiorentina game, a game certainly trickier (on paper) than the next PL game vs Villa. After Monaco we were playing Swansea away. After Anderlecht we were playing Bournemouth, after Quarabag we were playing Chelsea(!).

So the idea that seemed to come from your statement that it was "foolish" for anyone to expect a full side (or at least a side with more first-teamers than we saw yesterday) doesn't follow from what we have seen in the previous matches.

If you'd said something along the lines of "when you see where we are in the table" or "we have started to look fatigued" and that you can understand why Poch changed the line-up in the way that he did given our new priorities then that'd be fair enough.

But your statement, especially given the line-ups that actually HAVE been selected for away EL games that have preceded far trickier matches (on paper) than the Villa one coming up, just comes off as extremely mean-spirited towards the fans that DID make the effort to travel.

The key part of what I was saying was expected. I stand by what I said about either not paying attention or being a fool if you expected a full strength side. The fact that he has played weakened sides in the competition before and that we are still involved in a title challenge means that it would have been daft to discount the possibility. That is not the same as saying that someone who hoped for a full strength side is a fool, I didn't say that nor think it.

 

[glorygloryeze]

The key part of what I was saying was expected. I stand by what I said about either not paying attention or being a fool if you expected a full strength side. The fact that he has played weakened sides in the competition before and that we are still involved in a title challenge means that it would have been daft to discount the possibility. That is not the same as saying that someone who hoped for a full strength side is a fool, I didn't say that nor think it.

I'm happy to stand corrected on this, but has any poster actually said they expected a full-strength side to be put out by Poch yesterday?
As far as i see, people don't have issue with the fact that is was not a full-strength side, but that it was a side that was very much a weakened side, especially given the opposition (the strongest we've faced).
It seems that people are saying just one or two additional first-teamers would have a least made us more competitive (even if we would have still lost perhaps just in a way that made the return leg a match worth thinking about).

 

[diego_maradona]

You guys have to remember the likes of Bentaleb and Mason were injured for much of the earlier part of the EL. So Poch had to play Dier and Dembele more

 

[thfcsteff]

Very disappointed With the result last night. I never want to lose ANY games - including the "mickey mouse" domestic cups and the Europa Cup.

However, I think that Poch MUST have found himself in a situation where he had NO choice but to field the team he did - taking into consideration unfit, injured , knackered etc. players. None of these facts are known to us - the keyboard warriors on here.

Anyway, we have to look at the bigger picture. We are in a position that I could have NEVER thought would be possible with 9 games to go. This COULD be a long term defining season for us.

So please guys, lets get behind Poch, the team & management to hopefully deliver a truly memorable season.

Thank You . COYS

Brilliant and well-said!

 

[milo]

I'm happy to stand corrected on this, but has any poster actually said they expected a full-strength side to be put out by Poch yesterday?
As far as i see, people don't have issue with the fact that is was not a full-strength side, but that it was a side that was very much a weakened side, especially given the opposition (the strongest we've faced).
It seems that people are saying just one or two additional first-teamers would have a least made us more competitive (even if we would have still lost perhaps just in a way that made the return leg a match worth thinking about).

My comment about not paying attention/fools was in response to this post

We had this discussion yesterday mate I won't start it again. You can get away with a weakened side against fiorentina. It's quite another thing against Dortmund. I am sure fans who went out there were expecting our strongest possible line up and a good, competitive game in a fabulous stadium. I wonder how many would have bothered turning up to see a second string side.

 

[milo]

You guys have to remember the likes of Bentaleb and Mason were injured for much of the earlier part of the EL. So Poch had to play Dier and Dembele more

And that the player of the season contender, superstar Dembele who plays for us now is vastly improved on the Dembele who started the season.

Trippier and Davies have also improved immeasurably as the season has gone on (although yesterday was probably not a great example of that), as have Lamela and Alli.

 

[thfcsteff]

This has been an alarming, and eye-opening, thread for me. My naivety has once again been revealed and shown to all.

 

[glorygloryeze]

My comment about not paying attention/fools was in response to this post

Ok, i see the context better with that.

However, to be fair to @Robspur12 "our strongest possible line up" could have meant starting with Dembele (who was in the 18) in place of one of Carrol or Mason instead of having him come on as a sub. It could also have meant starting Lamela (who was in the 18) in place of Chadli instead of bringing him on as a sub. Perhaps if Kane had been brought on when it was 2-0 instead of when we were already 3-0 down that would have been stomached a bit more easily as well.

Just one or two of those in the 18 starting ahead of others could easily have been seen as "strongest possible."
However, starting Carrol AND Mason in the CM positions AND having Onomah start and with no Dembele alongside any of them gave the impression of going totally the opposite way..