OMT: Mighty Spurs vs Brighton & Hove Albion

[Junior19]

Def pens, can't argue.

Both were spot on.
The first one is somewhat interesting, because if you separate out the holding Kulu does it looks blatant.
However, if you play the entire corner situations, you see a slightly different picture. The amount of holding both ways, defender/attacker is astonishing. Dunk is more or less bodily moving Davies out of his way several times, all the other are grabbing shirts, hands, underwear, buttplugs, whatever they can get a hand on. And rarely are any fouls given. So one can understand that Kulu thought that it was a valid thing to do...

Several times there has been a number of incidents while the corner is taken where each one would constitute a free kick to the defending team every day of the week if it happened outside of the box, (but since it is a corner it is "allowed") followed by a single similar foul the other way resulting in a penalty given.

As long as we do have VAR, I think there should be a separate VAR-protocol for situations on corners leading to goal or penalty if it is not already in place: The very first incident occuring after the run-up to the corner kick is the first to be analyzed. If free kick to defending team, void goal/penalty. If not, move on to next. I think now they do it the other way around, start with the latest, then work backwards.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I just fail to understand how people can't see you can't play without 4 key players plus an other 3 to 4 starters and expect to win regularly, I thought the experience of our "cup teams" over the years might have offered a clue, but there are still some who think any Spurs team can beat anyone as they are just rubbish. We have done well to be where we are but the for some that's never enough. Can't wait for the raving and ranting when the window opens.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I agree with the general gist of your post Deano. However, if I am playing devil's advocate, it is then borderline negligent of the club to start the season with just 2 recognised CBs. If Dier is not to be trusted, Sanchez deemed to be surplus to requirements and Phillips too young to start, do we play the games when our main CBs are unavailable with fullbacks filling in? If so, on yesterday's evidence we are likely to lose more games.

If you watch yesterday's game again it is clear that the defence in its current incarnation is lacking leadership and drilling on the basics. There were several occasions when the defenders were bunched together leaving Brighton's attackers unmarked. They scored their first goal because of it. The lack of decisiveness in the defence causes other players to panic and make rash decisions hence the penalties. Add to that Royal's passing when under pressure is not good. As I said before, I trust Ange, but I hope he has a plan to improve our defending.

I think that's a very good and fair post and I'd agree with it pretty much entirely. The CB situation was always Russian roulette because the drop off if either VdV or Romero got injured in terms of style and capability of the replacements is huge. That both are gone again at the same time makes Ange's job really difficult. I have massive sympathy for Ange on that score.

What was possibly missing back there, because neither Royal or Davies were really directly culpable for the goals, was an organiser like you say. Of the options available, Dier was probably the best option for that. However, he has other flaws that would be exposed in Ange's system. I do know that an 18 year old debutant certainly isn't going to be the organiser so I wouldn't have a go at Ange for not playing the kids.

It's fair game to criticise Levy/the club for leaving us in this position - it looked very risky at the time and it's proven to be so repeatedly. The only mitigation is that it may not be easy to sign the very specific type of CB that Ange wants.

I am skeptical of Ange's approach but I'm not a complete naysayer. He deserves the chance to prove the likes of me wrong. With the number of players we needed in the summer, it was always likely to be a multi-window fix. Nights like last night will happen. City had them under Pep, The Dippers had them under Klopp and Woolwich had them under Arteta. Top 8 is satisfactory for me this season, top 6 is a job well done and anything above that is fantastic.

 

[Legohamster]

I think that's a very good and fair post and I'd agree with it pretty much entirely. The CB situation was always Russian roulette because the drop off if either VdV or Romero got injured in terms of style and capability of the replacements is huge. That both are gone again at the same time makes Ange's job really difficult. I have massive sympathy for Ange on that score.

What was possibly missing back there, because neither Royal or Davies were really directly culpable for the goals, was an organiser like you say. Of the options available, Dier was probably the best option for that. However, he has other flaws that would be exposed in Ange's system. I do know that an 18 year old debutant certainly isn't going to be the organiser so I wouldn't have a go at Ange for not playing the kids.

It's fair game to criticise Levy/the club for leaving us in this position - it looked very risky at the time and it's proven to be so repeatedly. The only mitigation is that it may not be easy to sign the very specific type of CB that Ange wants.

I am skeptical of Ange's approach but I'm not a complete naysayer. He deserves the chance to prove the likes of me wrong. With the number of players we needed in the summer, it was always likely to be a multi-window fix. Nights like last night will happen. City had them under Pep, The Dippers had them under Klopp and Woolwich had them under Arteta. Top 8 is satisfactory for me this season, top 6 is a job well done and anything above that is fantastic.

This season is a learning curve for Ange as well, I think season 2 Ange with tweak more tactic wise in certain games.

There seems to be a view that by being unhappy with certain aspects of Ange means you are wanting him out/not backing him

Which is rubbish.

 

[DeanoAustin]

This season is a learning curve for Ange as well, I think season 2 Ange with tweak more tactic wise in certain games.

There seems to be a view that by being unhappy with certain aspects of Ange means you are wanting him out/not backing him

Which is rubbish.

Think that's how a lot of discussion is framed these days - you have to be extreme on one side of an argument or another and there is not much allowance for nuance.

I genuinely believe that what we've seen of Ange so far is brilliant but there are some major, major flaws. It's entertaining, beautiful but too cavalier. Hopefully, he can get the personnel to cover those issues or adjust his tactics a bit. Either way, we're just at the start of a fun ride with him. Do I think he'll win anything with us? No. Do I think that I'll enjoy his reign immensely? Definitely.

 

[tommysvr]

Think that's how a lot of discussion is framed these days - you have to be extreme on one side of an argument or another and there is not much allowance for nuance.

I genuinely believe that what we've seen of Ange so far is brilliant but there are some major, major flaws. It's entertaining, beautiful but too cavalier. Hopefully, he can get the personnel to cover those issues or adjust his tactics a bit. Either way, we're just at the start of a fun ride with him. Do I think he'll win anything with us? No. Do I think that I'll enjoy his reign immensely? Definitely.

You can’t complain that an argument is framed in the extreme and then emphatically say (as you repeatedly have) that we’ll never win anything with Ange. It’s laughable.

You can be unhappy with certain parts — you’ve already written off literally any success (success meaning a trophy.) If I’ve misunderstood what you mean by “Do I think he’ll win anything with us? No.” then please let me know. But that seems pretty extreme to me.

 

[DeanoAustin]

You can’t complain that an argument is framed in the extreme and then emphatically say (as you repeatedly have) that we’ll never win anything with Ange. It’s laughable.

You can be unhappy with certain parts — you’ve already written off literally any success (success meaning a trophy.) If I’ve misunderstood what you mean by “Do I think he’ll win anything with us? No.” then please let me know. But that seems pretty extreme to me.

It's an opinion which is obvious from the "Do I think..." part of the statement. I've literally said above in another post that he deserves the chance to prove me wrong so I'm not so close minded that I think it's not a possibility. I also haven't framed it in a way where I'm dismissing anyone else's opinion to the contrary. So it's not really that extreme - just an opinion.

 

[tommysvr]

It's an opinion which is obvious from the "Do I think..." part of the statement. I've literally said above in another post that he deserves the chance to prove me wrong so I'm not so close minded that I think it's not a possibility. I also haven't framed it in a way where I'm dismissing anyone else's opinion to the contrary. So it's not really that extreme - just an opinion.

I don’t follow. Sounds like you want it both ways. You’ve already written him off after literally ever match (from the threads that I’ve been a part of). Sounds pretty extreme to me.

 

[metalgear]

If that is instruction rather than poor defending, that’s shocking. You’re allowing them a free man in our box. The lad had the time to take a touch, set himself and rifle it in. That’s all sorts of wrong.

Its a decision by ange. possibly to overload the front and center for safety at risk of the ball finding its way to a free player at the back.
alternatively one more man at the far post is one less man where most of the action is likely to happen.

Someone mentioned Ange playing his luck and i do think there is some truth in it - Ange plays into high probability situations - only try to score in the box, defend with a high line with fast defenders and in defence stack as many players between the ball and goal. Somehow all three didn't work out in this game. That's what i see consistently and i think in the 2nd half of the season more teams will wise up to how we play.

Aside from the CBs who we knew were not first choice, we need a better striker than Richarlison. So far only seen him scoring the easy ones. No speed or trickery to make his own goals unlike Son, he can't hold the ball well and so many of his passes were intercepted if not going sideways. He is so slow that the forward press is ineffective too. Son is clearly a much better CF than Richarlison to me.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I don’t follow. Sounds like you want it both ways. You’ve already written him off after literally ever match (from the threads that I’ve been a part of). Sounds pretty extreme to me.

I haven't. I've offered an opinion that I don't think he'll win anything with us. I've been pretty careful in pretty much every case to preface it with an "I believe" or "IMO". I've also repeatedly said that I hope posters who believe he will win something are right and I'm wrong.

That's the nuance. I also haven't once written him off. Look at my posting history. I've repeatedly said what he's done so far is incredible. To unite the club the way he has, to have us playing entertaining football, to make the stadium a good place to be are huge achievements. I've also stayed pretty consistent on my expectations for the season. Top 8 is par for the course. Top 6 is a job well done and top 4 is an incredible achievement.

I just don't share the hope that you can win trophies playing how he plays. That's the nuance - I'm pro-Ange, he's just not the answer to our trophy drought IMO.

 

[tommysvr]

I haven't. I've offered an opinion that I don't think he'll win anything with us. I've been pretty careful in pretty much every case to preface it with an "I believe" or "IMO". I've also repeatedly said that I hope posters who believe he will win something are right and I'm wrong.

That's the nuance. I also haven't once written him off. Look at my posting history. I've repeatedly said what he's done so far is incredible. To unite the club the way he has, to have us playing entertaining football, to make the stadium a good place to be are huge achievements. I've also stayed pretty consistent on my expectations for the season. Top 8 is par for the course. Top 6 is a job well done and top 4 is an incredible achievement.

I just don't share the hope that you can win trophies playing how he plays. That's the nuance - I'm pro-Ange, he's just not the answer to our trophy drought IMO.

Sorry mate, I must be really fudging dense because I don’t understand how that is not writing him off?

 

[DeanoAustin]

Sorry mate, I must be really fudging dense because I don’t understand how that is not writing him off?

"I don't think..." and "IMO" mean it's my opinion that he won't win trophies. I could be wrong. So I'm stating a belief without dismissing it entirely.

Secondly, I don't think you need to win trophies to be a successful manager at Tottenham. We haven't won one in 15 years. We were never really a club, bar a couple of purple patches, who won them regularly. The best managers we had in my lifetime were probably BMJ, Harry and Poch. None of them won a trophy. I think when Ange leaves, he'll have had a similar reign to BMJ and Harry and that's okay with me. That's relative success.

 

[tommysvr]

"I don't think..." and "IMO" mean it's my opinion that he won't win trophies. I could be wrong. So I'm stating a belief without dismissing it entirely.

Secondly, I don't think you need to win trophies to be a successful manager at Tottenham. We haven't won one in 15 years. We were never really a club, bar a couple of purple patches, who won them regularly. The best managers we had in my lifetime were probably BMJ, Harry and Poch. None of them won a trophy. I think when Ange leaves, he'll have had a similar reign to BMJ and Harry and that's okay with me. That's relative success.

I don’t know what else I can say other than “I don’t think he’ll win anything with us” is writing him off, no matter what your definition of success is.

IMO of course.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I don’t know what else I can say other than “I don’t think he’ll win anything with us” is writing him off, no matter what your definition of success is.

IMO of course.

You're kinda proving my original point so because my point was around the judgement of other people's opinions and framing them as extreme because they contain elements on one side of the argument or other whilst ignorning any nuance. It had nothing to do with actually holding extreme opinions.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Think that's how a lot of discussion is framed these days - you have to be extreme on one side of an argument or another and there is not much allowance for nuance.

I genuinely believe that what we've seen of Ange so far is brilliant but there are some major, major flaws. It's entertaining, beautiful but too cavalier. Hopefully, he can get the personnel to cover those issues or adjust his tactics a bit. Either way, we're just at the start of a fun ride with him. Do I think he'll win anything with us? No. Do I think that I'll enjoy his reign immensely? Definitely.

I fancy us to win a title under him
That’s how impressed I’ve been
And I still can’t work out why he won’t try youngsters
But that’s life

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

You're kinda proving my original point so because my point was around the judgement of other people's opinions and framing them as extreme because they contain elements on one side of the argument or other whilst ignorning any nuance. It had nothing to do with actually holding extreme opinions.

Saying you don’t think Ange will anything with us (presumably due to his style of play and not deviating from it) sounds a bit ridiculous when the club he is with have won only 2 league cups since 1991.

 

[Baleforce]

or doesn't it sound like logic, when great managers have failed to win trophies with us in that time as well, despite having players as talented as Kane, Bale, Modric and Lamela

 

[DeanoAustin]

Saying you don’t think Ange will anything with us (presumably due to his style of play and not deviating from it) sounds a bit ridiculous when the club he is with have won only 2 league cups since 1991.

Yeah perhaps it is. But I've seen a lot of posts like @Bedfordspurs one above where the posters believe Ange will break our duck while some believe he'll break it in a big way. Mine is the counter-argument to that as much for the sake of discussion here as anything else. And I won't be able to come back in 3 years if Ange wins the league or a cup and say "I always knew he would". I've made my position quite clear and am happy to perish on that rock because, ironically, if he does win the league (or the CL or FA Cup), it'll be the best day of my life aside from the birth of my kids.

 

[Robspur12]

"I don't think..." and "IMO" mean it's my opinion that he won't win trophies. I could be wrong. So I'm stating a belief without dismissing it entirely.

Secondly, I don't think you need to win trophies to be a successful manager at Tottenham. We haven't won one in 15 years. We were never really a club, bar a couple of purple patches, who won them regularly. The best managers we had in my lifetime were probably BMJ, Harry and Poch. None of them won a trophy. I think when Ange leaves, he'll have had a similar reign to BMJ and Harry and that's okay with me. That's relative success.

Again I agree with a lot of what you say in this post, but I think you've slightly underestimated Ange's ability. When I say that I trust Ange mate, it's not because of blind faith, but rather because he's shown elsewhere that he can win titles albeit not in the PL. I love the sharp incisive passing that is becoming a key part of our game which creates chances and mitigates the loss of Kane.

In addition, Son, Porro and Biss look like different players from what we saw last season; Johnson has fitted in quickly; he's handled the Richy mental health situation well and he has taken tough decisions on removing established players such as Lloris and Dier from the starting line ups. In many ways Ange has already shown he is the antithesis of the jose/conte era.

What he does need to now prove though and on this I completely agree with you, is that we can defend effectively. I don't think we properly prepared that side of the team in the summer given we were going to sell Sanchez and not trust Dier or any of the kids. If we cannot improve this side of our game then I'm afraid I am inclined to agree with you that he will not win anything. But it's early days and anyway it's great to discuss!

 

[DeanoAustin]

Again I agree with a lot of what you say in this post, but I think you've slightly underestimated Ange's ability. When I say that I trust Ange mate, it's not because of blind faith, but rather because he's shown elsewhere that he can win titles albeit not in the PL. I love the sharp incisive passing that is becoming a key part of our game which creates chances and mitigates the loss of Kane.

In addition, Son, Porro and Biss look like different players from what we saw last season; Johnson has fitted in quickly; he's handled the Richy mental health situation well and he has taken tough decisions on removing established players such as Lloris and Dier from the starting line ups. In many ways Ange has already shown he is the antithesis of the jose/conte era.

What he does need to now prove though and on this I completely agree with you, is that we can defend effectively. I don't think we properly prepared that side of the team in the summer given we were going to sell Sanchez and not trust Dier or any of the kids. If we cannot improve this side of our game then I'm afraid I am inclined to agree with you that he will not win anything. But it's early days and anyway it's great to discuss!

Agree with a lot of that. I think he's a very impressive individual. He takes a very big picture view of things and doesn't get bogged down by the short term problems. I think it also helps that he's come from the real world rather than being pampered his whole life. He talks like a real person. He treats players like adults and doesn't get involved in petty stuff. There is a massive amount to admire about him. He speaks well, he knows football and, you're absolutely correct, he is the opposite of the Jose and Conte eras. The football at times is absolutely breathtaking too like you say.

I just don't believe you can win big prizes by playing like we play. I see some of what I'd judge to be very glaring structural problems in our set up that won't necessarily be solved by personnel not matter how good those players are. Maybe time will prove me wrong. If it does, it'll be a glorious day because I can't think of anyone I'd rather have to lead us to glory.