Official - Defoe

[africanspurs]

just to add spice to this thread..if that was VDV he would have been no where NEAR that cross..an attempt probably wouldn't have even been made.

just throwing a humorous silly comment out there

its funny but if that was ade chasing after bales cross then we score a goal and bales cross is therefore amazing. why? because Ade is taller and has longer legs but i dont think he would have been in a different position to defoe anyway

 

[africanspurs]

All he had to do was keep a yard behind Bale and it's a goal every day of the week.

the irony with this is that he is actually just a yard or just over a yard behind bale. go figure right? bales cross actually looks to go slighlty forward. if that cross was square or slightly fizzed back.....then goal

 

[mick cooper]

But he outscores all other English players. Dude, you do not get a bonus for scoring pretty goals just ask Gary Lineker

it wasn't a criticism - just an observation

unlike some of the people participating in this thread, I'm not about to start showering it with posts about who is at fault, or who is best

and neither am I going to make infantile and ignorant statements - I'll leave that to others (too immature to accept criticism of their own naive analysis.)

Defoe and Bent are different players, with differing skillsets - but both stick the ball away. I would rather have Defoe in my team, but its a personal choice, related to nothing more scientific that who I like to see play the game - because of how they do it.

Bents a dustbin scavenger of a player and Defoe dines on better fare, but they both eat well, in their own way.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

the irony with this is that he is actually just a yard or just over a yard behind bale. go figure right? bales cross actually looks to go slighlty forward. if that cross was square or slightly fizzed back.....then goal

100% correct

Your taught when playing wide to pull it back. That ball when forward. BUT it was just back luck that it didn't quite click IMO (prepare to be knocked down)

 

[mick cooper]

You requested I ignore you a few months back. You didnt want to debate with me, yet you want to make comments to me third hand. Prick.

He's possibly the most childish poster I have ever come across Totman, he does precisely the same thing to everyone who rips him up for his naive and ignorant comments and analysis. He can post a hell of a rate though, so its hard to keep up.

Some people need to grow a spine, and accept that if you join a debate not everyone will agree with your POV (in part or entirely) and you either stand your ground and support your cause - or get the feck out, and don't join in debates with people that know more than you do.

If a poster puts down something thats disputed, then they have to back it or stack it.

But you need to be a grown up to do that sort of thing.

NB - Moderators stand by for a flurry of complaints, that nasty Mick Cooper is being horrid to me again!

 

[WookieD]

sure in a perfect world defoe might have hugged the onside line and just waited, but he made a decision that technically wasnt even wrong, things just didnt work out

IMHO

Fair enough, but you have to take it in the context of who the provider was. In these situations, on a break, you have to put money on 1) Bale beating his man. 2) The ball to fizz low and fast across goal. How many times does he need to play that ball before you realise it's the default option. It's always near the keeper, yet it always beats the keeper. You say that our players gamble on it? No way, Jose. More often than not the striker isn't smart to it.

Put it this way, if you know that 90% of the time, Bale is going to win the leg race AND having won the race he is going straight across the face of goal, why position yourself anywhere else?

I thought that Defoe did well on Sunday, I'm just annoyed that, having seen Bale provide this chance so many times, and seeing Pav, Crouch and Defoe all fail to read Bale so many times, it is getting frustrating that they don't realise what he is going to do, when everyone in the stands does.

 

[metalgear]

oh come on man, thats a terrible thing to say especially if your basing that on the one miss against city which on second , third, and fourth viewing wasnt even a 'stupid' mistake by JD anyway

look at the cut of the grass and when bale goes from shade to shade..defoe is literally 1 or two steps behind him trying to keep onside

there is no way you can pin that mess on defoe...no way.

i'm not basing this on just the Emirates Marketing Project miss. look through this season and you can see why Harry chooses not to start with Defoe. When Bale crosses he's nowhere near most of the time and if he is, he is usually within arm's length of ade!

but going back to the Man C miss specifically, you'll see that defoe doesn't ever catch up with bale - even after the time taken for bale to shimmy and goes past his man, and for the ball to travel half the breadth of the pitch.

HOWEVER - defoe did pull up with a cramp just before this effort didn't he... some will excuse him for subsequently not being able to be 100%... but why should he be going down with cramps in the first place.

 

[africanspurs]

i'm not basing this on just the Emirates Marketing Project miss. look through this season and you can see why Harry chooses not to start with Defoe. When Bale crosses he's nowhere near most of the time and if he is, he is usually within arm's length of ade!

but going back to the Man C miss specifically, you'll see that defoe doesn't ever catch up with bale - even after the time taken for bale to shimmy and goes past his man, and for the ball to travel half the breadth of the pitch.

HOWEVER - defoe did pull up with a cramp just before this effort didn't he... some will excuse him for subsequently not being able to be 100%... but why should he be going down with cramps in the first place.

i see the point you're trying to make but with all due respect i still would have to refuse to give it significant exposure mainly because i am watching this thing again and again (not that much only like 4 times total) and if defoe was to get any more in line with bale he would need a T-square to measure up the offside line .....

as for the ball travelling half the length of the pitch, point taken (at least the point you are trying to make in that the pace of the ball was not THAT much so that defoe shouldnt have gotten a better touch) but two things....the ball isnt going half the breadth of the pitch LOL, its actually travelling less than half the breadth of the box......, AND its going FORWARD...AWAY from defoe. its going AWAY from the little guy. you can tell this by how the ball enters the 6 yard box relative to where bale crossed from.

defoe may be guilty of many things but of being the primary culprit at fault, in a situation which doesnt even warrant having any villains, he is not IMHO

 

[SUIYHA]

SUIYHA, are you Moonlit Knight's alias? Very similar nuance in your tone

Either way - you're post is both factually and objectively wrong.


JD contributing to overall play? lmfao. Quite possibly the greediest out of all first teamers

Ok, here are Defoe and Bent's statistics taken from the Premier League's fantasy league. I am not comparing goals or assists per game, I am comparing goals per minute. Unfortunately there's no easy way to edit it to only contain the things that I want, so just remember that the first column is minutes played, the second is goals and the third is assists.

Defoe:

2011/12 909 8 2 4 13 0 0 0 1 0 0 8 209 69
2010/11 1479 4 2 4 17 0 0 1 0 1 0 3 0 8.3 56
2009/10 2555 18 5 0 25 0 0 1 3 1 0 8 0 8.9 150
2008/09 2056 11 4 0 34 0 0 1 4 0 0 13 0 7.9 113
2007/08 1605 12 3 0 27 0 0 1 5 0 0 9 0 7.6 104
2006/07 1935 10 2 0 29 0 0 1 2 0 0 14 0 7.8 109

Total minutes = 10539
Total goals = 63
Total assists = 18
Minutes per goal = 167.29
Minutes per assist = 585.5

Bent:

2011/12 1510 8 1 4 23 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 258 78
2010/11 3142 17 2 12 41 0 0 0 1 0 0 14 0 9.2 158
2009/10 3386 24 4 0 54 0 0 3 5 0 0 22 0 8.1 195
2008/09 2174 12 2 0 32 0 0 0 1 0 0 4 0 6.9 111
2007/08 1148 6 5 0 22 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 8.9 80
2006/07 2863 13 2 0 49 0 0 0 1 0 0 16 0 8.4 137

Total minutes = 14223
Total goals = 80
Total assists = 16
Minutes per goal = 177.79
Minutes per assist = 888.94


Even if you only go from the start of the 09/10 season when Bent began to "prove Harry wrong", their minutes per goal records are still both 164 minutes per goal, whereas Bent's minutes per assist ratio is more than twice as high as Defoe's.

All of this with Bent as the main penalty taker in his team. Defoe (whilst having an awful record at them) has never been our main penalty taker apart from in the second half of the 09/10 season after Keane had left.


The stats don't lie. Defoe is a more effective striker than Bent. Not only that, but his team mates know that they can pass the ball to Defoe's feet with defenders goal side of him and not have a forgone conclusion of him either getting tackled, running it into the corner or stopping the play and passing it backwards.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

i'm not basing this on just the Emirates Marketing Project miss. look through this season and you can see why Harry chooses not to start with Defoe. When Bale crosses he's nowhere near most of the time and if he is, he is usually within arm's length of ade!

but going back to the Man C miss specifically, you'll see that defoe doesn't ever catch up with bale - even after the time taken for bale to shimmy and goes past his man, and for the ball to travel half the breadth of the pitch.

HOWEVER - defoe did pull up with a cramp just before this effort didn't he... some will excuse him for subsequently not being able to be 100%... but why should he be going down with cramps in the first place.

Some of the stuff I am reading on this thread about Defoe is astonishing. You for instance are alleging that when "Bale crosses he's nowhere near most of the time and if he is, he is usually within arm's length of ade!", methinks that is rather harsh?

Applying a similar standard to VDV who more often than not plays instead of Defoe, can you honestly say VDV performs any better. There is no evidence to suggest that on a match on m,atch basis we score more goals when VDV is playing as opposed to Defoe. On the other hand the facts show firstly Ade scores more goals when playing alongside Defoe (maybe because they actually look like a partnership) and secondly Defoe has a better goal scoring record this season.

It is funny how so much criticism he is getting for missing this one chance. I wonder if VDV had missed it if the uproar would be the same (silly me). I can see parallelson what happened at the other end. Ledders is a legend (personally one of my very favourite all time players) so no one dare say a word against him for giving away a penalty in the final seconds. Now imagine if Bassong had made that tackle in the last seconds of the match. Is there anyone of you who thinks Bassong would not be slaughtered on this forum? And therein lies the rub.

Some people, the Afans, the Gutter Boys of this world will continue to slag off Defoe come what may. Prior to the match Gutter Boy informs us that Defoe is a flat track bully, but after the match nothing about the goal that was scored but everything about a goal that was not.


plays betteSo you would rather have we play VDV who seems to play anywhere accept in the penalty area or remotely as a partner for Ade. Where the heck is VDV whenever Bale puts these crosses in? VDV has had more game time in the league than Defoe but there is no eveidence to show that either Ade in particular or the team as a whole score more goals when

 

[totman]

It feels like people are blaming Defoe, because Bale usually beats his man and puts in a pin point cross.

Sorry, but on this occasion, he waited too long to play the right pass (which would have been early to Defoes feet), and then, when he had to play it across the goal, he overhit it, and misplaced it.

Ask yourselves two simple questions.

Did Bale find Defoe with the pass?
Did Bale have more than enough time to find Defoe with the pass?

 

[NaijaSpurs]

i'm not basing this on just the Emirates Marketing Project miss. look through this season and you can see why Harry chooses not to start with Defoe. When Bale crosses he's nowhere near most of the time and if he is, he is usually within arm's length of ade!

but going back to the Man C miss specifically, you'll see that defoe doesn't ever catch up with bale - even after the time taken for bale to shimmy and goes past his man, and for the ball to travel half the breadth of the pitch.

HOWEVER - defoe did pull up with a cramp just before this effort didn't he... some will excuse him for subsequently not being able to be 100%... but why should he be going down with cramps in the first place.

In the same vein you could ask how come a number of our players have picked up hamstring problems this season?

 

[Mumorn]

Last season, I admit I was one of Defoe's biggest haters, but didn't he go somewhere in the summer for some training, seems like he's really upped his game this year (No surprise considering it's a European cup year with England), but he looks stronger, looks deadlier in front of goal and just looks a much sharper player than last year, like the Defoe of the opening season to 09/10 (once again, no surprise considering it was a World Cup year with England)

Long may it continue.

 

[metalgear]

Some of the stuff I am reading on this thread about Defoe is astonishing. You for instance are alleging that when "Bale crosses he's nowhere near most of the time and if he is, he is usually within arm's length of ade!", methinks that is rather harsh?

Applying a similar standard to VDV who more often than not plays instead of Defoe, can you honestly say VDV performs any better. There is no evidence to suggest that on a match on m,atch basis we score more goals when VDV is playing as opposed to Defoe. On the other hand the facts show firstly Ade scores more goals when playing alongside Defoe (maybe because they actually look like a partnership) and secondly Defoe has a better goal scoring record this season.

It is funny how so much criticism he is getting for missing this one chance. I wonder if VDV had missed it if the uproar would be the same (silly me). I can see parallelson what happened at the other end. Ledders is a legend (personally one of my very favourite all time players) so no one dare say a word against him for giving away a penalty in the final seconds. Now imagine if Bassong had made that tackle in the last seconds of the match. Is there anyone of you who thinks Bassong would not be slaughtered on this forum? And therein lies the rub.

Some people, the Afans, the Gutter Boys of this world will continue to slag off Defoe come what may. Prior to the match Gutter Boy informs us that Defoe is a flat track bully, but after the match nothing about the goal that was scored but everything about a goal that was not.


plays betteSo you would rather have we play VDV who seems to play anywhere accept in the penalty area or remotely as a partner for Ade. Where the heck is VDV whenever Bale puts these crosses in? VDV has had more game time in the league than Defoe but there is no eveidence to show that either Ade in particular or the team as a whole score more goals when

OK I'm keeping to the Defoe subject, won't be responding to anything else. Also please note that I am speaking about Defoe's overall performance, and the Man C miss as a symptom of a larger problem.

Why do you think Defoe doesn't get enough starts, or doesn't even make it to the England team when his stats is that good? Capello and Redknapp knows something we don't?
Defoe is good for a mid table club - just as Bent is - he just isn't good enough for the Spurs team we have now.

The problem is that Defoe only does one thing well which is receive the ball from the center of the pitch (not a cross), turn and shoot. His skillset is highly effective but extremely narrow. Definitely doesn't suit a team like us, but would probably do well for a more direct football playing team.

The stats don't lie - the other stat we have is that our conversions from possession is low, and we have one of the lowest scoring frontline in the top half of the EPL. Watch Demba Ba lately? Masterclass in positioning and selfish anticipation. Strikes as well as Defoe, just as fast (he is bulkier), his game is simply to seek out to be available to score.

The worst I'd want now is Bale thinking "what do I have to do to helpthe team get more assists....and after all that hard work the fans are saying that I misplaced that?"

 

[totman]

Defoe is good for a mid table club - just as Bent is - he just isn't good enough for the Spurs team we have now.

Supposedly not good enough, yet he's scored one more than Ade, and one less than VDV in less game time than both

The problem is that Defoe only does one thing well which is receive the ball from the center of the pitch (not a cross), turn and shoot. His skillset is highly effective but extremely narrow. Definitely doesn't suit a team like us, but would probably do well for a more direct football playing team.

He suits a team like us when we play him with Ade in a 442. AGAIN: VDV and Ade have not scored together in one single game, yet Defoe and Ade have scored in four games together (with less game time). Why do choose to ignore this, rather than address it?
What do you think about his working partnership with Ade?
Do you think its worth developing, or abandoning between now and May? Consider that we score MORE goals that way.

The stats don't lie - the other stat we have is that our conversions from possession is low, and we have one of the lowest scoring frontline in the top half of the EPL.
Defoe (PL)
16 games, 8 goals, 1 assist, 49 shots
VDV
20 games, 7 goals, 4 assists, 65 shots

Guess you will be slating VDV then, seeing as he is supposed to provide more than Defoe up front...?

The worst I'd want now is Bale thinking "what do I have to do to helpthe team get more assists....and after all that hard work the fans are saying that I misplaced that?"

If Bale thinks he did the right thing, then to be honest, he must think he can walk on water. As another poster said, where the hell is VDV when Bale whips in all these crosses?
He too knows Bale will 99% beat the man. He too knows that Bale will lay a ball across the box and not cut it back. He too knows that Bale is alot faster than he is.

But its ok for VDV to not anticipate this, and make an appropriate run into the box......?

 

[africanspurs]

i'm not basing this on just the Emirates Marketing Project miss. look through this season and you can see why Harry chooses not to start with Defoe. When Bale crosses he's nowhere near most of the time and if he is, he is usually within arm's length of ade!

but going back to the Man C miss specifically, you'll see that defoe doesn't ever catch up with bale - even after the time taken for bale to shimmy and goes past his man, and for the ball to travel half the breadth of the pitch.

HOWEVER - defoe did pull up with a cramp just before this effort didn't he... some will excuse him for subsequently not being able to be 100%... but why should he be going down with cramps in the first place.

i have to apologise for something here. even though i dont think defoe is at fault for the miss , nor is bale, you might hav a point about the way those types of opportunities are not taken by our front men in general

case in point, the miss with city, on the you tube clip......one has to ask oneself...why did defoe slide so late? could he have slid earlier perhaps?

its a desperate attempt as an olive branch but i have to say thAT it does look like he could have maybe slid for the ball earlier

 

[metalgear]

i have to apologise for something here. even though i dont think defoe is at fault for the miss , nor is bale, you might hav a point about the way those types of opportunities are not taken by our front men in general

case in point, the miss with city, on the you tube clip......one has to ask oneself...why did defoe slide so late? could he have slid earlier perhaps?

its a desperate attempt as an olive branch but i have to say thAT it does look like he could have maybe slid for the ball earlier

Appreciate your post ^^. On the flip side I think there is something wrong with the way we train/don't train.

With someone of Bale's ability, surely we should be anticipating and connecting with more of Bale's crosses; not stand in awe and watch the ball go by.
With Parker and Modric all excellent in the midfield, why does Harry insist on dropping one attacking player back deep into the midfield e.g. Keane, VDV and also Defoe.
A question for Harry I guess - we don't seem to make the most of what we have. Yes we are winning, yes we are third - but it feels as though we have still so much potential that remains unlocked.

And perhaps underlying my motivation to critique Defoe is actually to shift the blame away from Bale - seriously we witnessed some classy footballing there to get the cross in that wide and beyond the grasp of a good keeper like Hart. I hope Bale doesn't read this and wonder if his football could be better appreciated under "other circumstances".

 

[mick cooper]

i have to apologise for something here. even though i dont think defoe is at fault for the miss , nor is bale, you might hav a point about the way those types of opportunities are not taken by our front men in general

case in point, the miss with city, on the you tube clip......one has to ask oneself...why did defoe slide so late? could he have slid earlier perhaps?

its a desperate attempt as an olive branch but i have to say thAT it does look like he could have maybe slid for the ball earlier

and if he had slid in earlier and the ball came across at head height - he would have looked like a spactacular tosser

cue the next set of criticisms.

 

[mick cooper]

Appreciate your post ^^. On the flip side I think there is something wrong with the way we train/don't train.

With someone of Bale's ability, surely we should be anticipating and connecting with more of Bale's crosses; not stand in awe and watch the ball go by.
With Parker and Modric all excellent in the midfield, why does Harry insist on dropping one attacking player back deep into the midfield e.g. Keane, VDV and also Defoe.
A question for Harry I guess - we don't seem to make the most of what we have. Yes we are winning, yes we are third - but it feels as though we have still so much potential that remains unlocked.

And perhaps underlying my motivation to critique Defoe is actually to shift the blame away from Bale - seriously we witnessed some classy footballing there to get the cross in that wide and beyond the grasp of a good keeper like Hart. I hope Bale doesn't read this and wonder if his football could be better appreciated under "other circumstances".

Hows the view from that bandwagon?

If you look carefully, you might be able to spot a barber thread, and be able to blame Defoe for inspiring poor tonsorial choices amongst the spurs side

heaven forbid that we would look at Bale's barnet and comment.


Does it actually occur to you that if we had a striker who possessed all of the skill, anticipation and predatory capabilities that you are attempting to beat Defoe to death for failing to possess, he might just be playing for Emirates Marketing Project/Anzi Machakala/PSG or Chelsea by now? Torres went for 50 million and would probably have killed spectators queueing for the toilets with that cross, and Carroll would probably have been ironing the corner flag.

He isn't Eto'o and he isn't Villa, but he is Defoe, he is ours and he is our top scorer - can't you just celebrate him for who he is, and try to get behind him and his committed contributions, rather than analysing his stool samples and criticising him for the way he conducts his life?

 

[WookieD]

It feels like people are blaming Defoe, because Bale usually beats his man and puts in a pin point cross.

Sorry, but on this occasion, he waited too long to play the right pass (which would have been early to Defoes feet), and then, when he had to play it across the goal, he overhit it, and misplaced it.

Ask yourselves two simple questions.

Did Bale find Defoe with the pass?
Did Bale have more than enough time to find Defoe with the pass?

You're ignoring the fact that Lescott starts off marking Defoe. It is only Bale's run that drags him out of position to give Defoe space. If he tries to play inside, there is nothing to guarantee that the pass won't be intercepted... But once he has done Lescott in a foot race, there is no chance of interception.