Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked

[Mr Gogolak]

It may be that we don't do well under Nuno. But do you think it is fair to condemn him before he's had some settled time with the team? He's had all manner of complications with Kane, the Argies etc. Personally I'll reserve judgment until he's had some games and stability. Hopefully, he's not undermined before he's even got his messages and philosophy across. That would be sad. Levy has always been quick to pull the trigger, so you shouldn't concern yourself. If Nuno doesn't generate points or performances he will be sacked. Let's hope he gets a fair crack in the interim.

Could not agree more. However, I really hope, for everybody's sake, that the chairman and the players don't base their opinions on my comments. That would be a recipe for disaster! I don't even think my ramblings have any influence on the mood inside the stadium. I watch the games, come up with some ideas and I log in here to see what others have seen differently and exchange our points of view. It's as simple as that.

I don't know what it's like in the UK but in France (fortunately, it's different in Croatia), it's becoming more and more difficult to debate. It started a few years before the Covid outbreak. You tend to have one set of largely approved opinions and if you disagree with that, you're either an idiot or a conspiracy theorist or worse. I'd give a few examples, but I'm afraid I'd look like an idiot or a conspiracy theorist!

I think every opinion deserves to be heard (even the most outrageous ones) and challenged (even the most obvious ones).

When I said in the summer that we were back to the 90s (Spurs-wise, that is), the idea was dismissed by some fellow fans. So what? Even if we're not and I got it wrong (which I hope), what does it matter? They won't like me? They'll think I'm an idiot? I'm not patronising when I say that I'm glad some people, like yourself, are willing to defend it. In other circumstances, I would too but I really find his brand of football extremely boring and I'm too old to waste two hours of my time for the fleeting pleasure of a hard-fought 1-0 victory with a couple of shots of target in 90 minutes.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Could not agree more. However, I really hope, for everybody's sake, that the chairman and the players don't base their opinions on my comments. That would be a recipe for disaster! I don't even think my ramblings have any influence on the mood inside the stadium. I watch the games, come up with some ideas and I log in here to see what others have seen differently and exchange our points of view. It's as simple as that.

I don't know what it's like in the UK but in France (fortunately, it's different in Croatia), it's becoming more and more difficult to debate. It started a few years before the Covid outbreak. You tend to have one set of largely approved opinions and if you disagree with that, you're either an idiot or a conspiracy theorist or worse. I'd give a few examples, but I'm afraid I'd look like an idiot or a conspiracy theorist!

I think every opinion deserves to be heard (even the most outrageous ones) and challenged (even the most obvious ones).

When I said in the summer that we were back to the 90s (Spurs-wise, that is), the idea was dismissed by some fellow fans. So what? Even if we're not and I got it wrong (which I hope), what does it matter? They won't like me? They'll think I'm an idiot? I'm not patronising when I say that I'm glad some people, like yourself, are willing to defend it. In other circumstances, I would too but I really find his brand of football extremely boring and I'm too old to waste two hours of my time for the fleeting pleasure of a hard-fought 1-0 victory with a couple of shots of target in 90 minutes.

I don’t think anyone will call it exciting football

 

[glasgowspur]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...rale-spurs-rock-bottom-gallagher-england/amp/

Probably a bit overblown, but another leak from within club to destabilise us. I wonder who it could be, ‘curious’ you could say…

There's nothing strange about winks not being in the match day squad.

 

[afsoc4life]

Managers aren't allowed to be furious with players? Managers aren't allowed to treat players like adults?

That may explain some mentalities in the squad. That said it is a media article. I am very careful with them nowadays. They tend to let fly a number of articles.

 

[Surfless]

Just a couple of questions:

Re: "we've regularly competed for honours for the past 15 years, compared to 90% of our peer group."
Who do you consider to be our peer group then?

"With regards Nuno - we didn't get the manager we wanted which would have been one of Naglesmann, Ten Haag or Rodgers, and once those three had been ruled out there was never a perfect candidate. So we've got Nuno who is a clever guy, but not a Spurs manager - not unless he changes his path from a pragmatic defensive coach to a new more expansive style. As such he's a stop gap until Poch, Ten Haag, Rodgers, or possibly Potter becomes available."

What ruled those managers out? Nagelemann, fair enough - he went to Bayern Munich and I know they are an absolute giant of a club compared to us. Ten Haag and Rodgers though are at Ajax and Leicester. If we cannot attract either of those two managers then that is a sad indictment of the the package on offer at THFC. Why would we have to wait until Potter 'becomes available'. In his Telegraph article Matt Law suggested that Potter let it be known that he wasn't interested in tarnishing his growing reputation by going to Spurs. Does it not worry you that managers with a good reputation see our club as one that is so very hard to succeed at? Do you think sacking Pochettino at the first sign of a blip after he had so obviously consistently over achieved compared to resources has done us any favours when it comes to wanting to hire a young manager with a growing reputation?

Our peers were and are the other 19 clubs in the Premier League. In the FA cup there's 91 other clubs. In Europe as many clubs as there are in the respective association members. That's our peer group, and by that measure across the three competitions we're regularly in - Domestic League, Domestic Cup and European tournament, we're in a high percentile. Put it this way if I was hiring for my work, and I was offered Tottenham or Crystal Palace from the Prem, I'd have Spurs - same as if I was offered Tottenham or Crawley town in the FA Cup or spurs over KV Mechelen in europe. The only other metric involved in measuring performance revolves around spending, and the likes of Leeds, Blackburn, have proved that is often temporary and fraught with danger if done badly.

Regards managers and the desirability of our club, the overall picture has remained "sleeping giant" for a generation. We don't win something every season, we are there or thereabouts and we are coming off the back of a spell where we had a manager who made our team overachieve. There's nothing wrong with over achieving, its practically the only way to break the hold the rich clubs have on competitions now (think Wigan a few years ago in the cup), but when the leader of that over achievement left we reached for someone whose skill lay not in improving players but buying top ones and creating a team that way.

The only real mistake I stick on with our chairman is the appointment of Mourinho, as he just wasn't the guy to take us up a level with our business philosophy. Sure it was a statement, but it was vital after Jose we didn't do that again. Hence, no to Conte. The only mitigation I can give to appointing Jose was that if covid hadn't happened Levy night have been looking to back the manager better than in the end he could, financially.

We are in a hiatus at the moment while poch gets his PSG itch scratched. Once he's done that he will be back I suspect. Nuno/an other will be a stop gap til then. It's a risky strategy but how do you pass up a guy who is so skilled and loved the club so much?

Personally I'd now go all out for Potter, just not sure if the board would go for it.

 

[afsoc4life]

Hence why I don’t think it was tactics
I think it was players making some decisions and not getting the plan right
I mean fudge knows how or why but I can’t a manager that many on here think is defensive would do the exact opposite on a game like that

Case in point in first half - Hojberg's positional discipline and response in transition.

 

[glasgowspur]

Our peers were and are the other 19 clubs in the Premier League. In the FA cup there's 91 other clubs. In Europe as many clubs as there are in the respective association members. That's our peer group, and by that measure across the three competitions we're regularly in - Domestic League, Domestic Cup and European tournament, we're in a high percentile. Put it this way if I was hiring for my work, and I was offered Tottenham or Crystal Palace from the Prem, I'd have Spurs - same as if I was offered Tottenham or Crawley town in the FA Cup or spurs over KV Mechelen in europe. The only other metric involved in measuring performance revolves around spending, and the likes of Leeds, Blackburn, have proved that is often temporary and fraught with danger if done badly.

Regards managers and the desirability of our club, the overall picture has remained "sleeping giant" for a generation. We don't win something every season, we are there or thereabouts and we are coming off the back of a spell where we had a manager who made our team overachieve. There's nothing wrong with over achieving, its practically the only way to break the hold the rich clubs have on competitions now (think Wigan a few years ago in the cup), but when the leader of that over achievement left we reached for someone whose skill lay not in improving players but buying top ones and creating a team that way.

The only real mistake I stick on with our chairman is the appointment of Mourinho, as he just wasn't the guy to take us up a level with our business philosophy. Sure it was a statement, but it was vital after Jose we didn't do that again. Hence, no to Conte. The only mitigation I can give to appointing Jose was that if covid hadn't happened Levy night have been looking to back the manager better than in the end he could, financially.

We are in a hiatus at the moment while poch gets his PSG itch scratched. Once he's done that he will be back I suspect. Nuno/an other will be a stop gap til then. It's a risky strategy but how do you pass up a guy who is so skilled and loved the club so much?

Personally I'd now go all out for Potter, just not sure if the board would go for it.

Jose was such a bad match for us, just as we were a bad match for him.
He obviously thought he could rock up here, whip the players into a shape, win a trophy and move on to better things on the back of it, reflecting in the glory.
The fact he could not see the mental fragility of that/this squad speaks volumes about him.

I'd love poch back, but i can't see it working. The expectations would be enormous, and nothing is going to fix this situation quickly.
Even though we appear to be recruiting just exactly the rigbt type of player for him i just can't see him being given the time unless it all falls into place immediately. And this is spurs, so that's not going to happen.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

We are in a hiatus at the moment while poch gets his PSG itch scratched. Once he's done that he will be back I suspect. Nuno/an other will be a stop gap til then. It's a risky strategy but how do you pass up a guy who is so skilled and loved the club so much?

I know I'm in the minority, but I'll never understand the obsession with Pochettino. It's like saying there's only one man in the world who can manage this club. Despite the abject football on display, I'm glad we went for Santo rather than signing him back because, at least, we're moving forward. All good things have to come to an end. I've thought long and hard about what makes it such an unappealing proposition for me and I think it goes way beyond football. It feels childish to me: one more ice cream, one more cartoon, one more season with my favourite manager...

To each, his own but I think what irks me with the calls for Pochettino to come back is that, somehow, I see it as being unable to accept your own mortality (big words, here!). Time passes. Things change. You can't live with your parents forever and, sometimes, your partner leaves for someone else. You move on, you learn, you adapt. Having him back would be the opposite of that. But, again, I realise my reluctance probably says a lot more about me than it does about Pochettino's ability as a manager!

 

[Mcfee]

We are in a hiatus at the moment while poch gets his PSG itch scratched. Once he's done that he will be back I suspect. Nuno/an other will be a stop gap til then. It's a risky strategy but how do you pass up a guy who is so skilled and loved the club so much?

Personally I'd now go all out for Potter, just not sure if the board would go for it.

Currently Poch is unavailable and keeping the club in a holding pattern until he becomes available would be a disastrous position to put ourselves in. Why would the likes of Potter or anyone else touch us in that case.

 

[AdamB]

We are back at that point where we had the wrong personalities at the core (kaboul etc).
Time to revamp the squad personality before anything else.

I really dont think this argument stacks up. If you look back on page 71 I posted our CL final squad and how many of those are still around.

Unless we've been signing players with the 'wrong personality' then this just doesnt stack up

 

[DeanoAustin]

Managers aren't allowed to be furious with players? Managers aren't allowed to treat players like adults?

That may explain some mentalities in the squad. That said it is a media article. I am very careful with them nowadays. They tend to let fly a number of articles.

Managers are allowed to be furious with players. That happens in football and it happens in real life. But I think sometimes fans think that "what players really need is to be told a few home truths" all the time.

Players are human too. If some fella comes in and is nothing but harsh with them, they aren't gonna like it. I wouldn't in my job. I can take criticism for mistakes but I won't take it non stop and I would struggle under a manager who kept an unhealthy distance.

You need more as a manager than to be hard. Fergie had it. Players often speak about how he'd take an interest in their lives and knew their kids names and stuff. Fergie was unbelievable for that apparently. I know a bloke who met him twice, years apart, and Fergie knew his name second time. Cloughie was a very good man manager. Listen to Roy Keane talk about how Clough handled his homesickness. Mourinho was unbelievable at bigging people up as well as kicking them when he felt it was required.

Being a manager is more than just being tactically astute and being able to "tell it as it is". A manager needs to build relationships as soft as that sounds.

All the noises so far indicate that Nuno can only do 1 of the 3 if even that.

 

[glasgowspur]

Managers are allowed to be furious with players. That happens in football and it happens in real life. But I think sometimes fans think that "what players really need is to be told a few home truths" all the time.

Players are human too. If some fella comes in and is nothing but harsh with them, they aren't gonna like it. I wouldn't in my job. I can take criticism for mistakes but I won't take it non stop and I would struggle under a manager who kept an unhealthy distance.

You need more as a manager than to be hard. Fergie had it. Players often speak about how he'd take an interest in their lives and knew their kids names and stuff. Fergie was unbelievable for that apparently. I know a bloke who met him twice, years apart, and Fergie knew his name second time. Cloughie was a very good man manager. Listen to Roy Keane talk about how Clough handled his homesickness. Mourinho was unbelievable at bigging people up as well as kicking them when he felt it was required.

Being a manager is more than just being tactically astute and being able to "tell it as it is". A manager needs to build relationships as soft as that sounds.

All the noises so far indicate that Nuno can only do 1 of the 3 if even that.

I honestly don't think Fergie was a great football manager, but he was a fantastic man manager.
He knew how and when to treat players to mr nice guy and mr angry.
He was also excellent at knowing when to treat them as individuals and and as a group.
But he was very lucky to have the full support of the utd board, not many managers get to fall out with the likes of Beckham, keane, stam etc and not feel the heat.
It does help when you're winning of course.

 

[Finney Is Back]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1442912047641993223

I think we're stuck with Nuno until the end of the season (unless we're bottom 5 or 6 come the start of January).....

We saw back in the summer that we couldn't attract a top level coach and that was even when the coach knew they would have the summer to work with the squad and the carrot of some spending on the squad dangled in front of them. I think Levy knows that he cannot really appoint another Mason type and/or have another protracted manager search.

I think we now need to hope that Nuno stumbles on to some tactics that work to a reasonable level that lets us grind out a few results.

 

[monkeybarry]

I really dont think this argument stacks up. If you look back on page 71 I posted our CL final squad and how many of those are still around.

Unless we've been signing players with the 'wrong personality' then this just doesnt stack up

There is definitely something that has been consistent from the end of Poch, throughout Mourinho and now with Nuno - there are certainly some common denominators.
Personalities and attitudes change over time, so I don't think the direct comparison to CL final squad works. Although it may hold up with some players knowing that is their career highlight, so could be a reason for the lack of effort.

I was watching a programme last night and G.Neville was talking about Ferguson and Ferguson not accepting that the opposition was "bigger or stronger or more skillful - find a way to win the game". And that's it, find "a way" - that's what divides players from winners. Are you here to play the game? Or win the game?
I can't think of many players in our team that fit the latter and plenty that seem to have just "turned up for a bit of a kick about"

 

[yiddo37]

[QUOTE="glasgowspur, post: 1506422, member: 6666"I honestly don't think Fergie was a great football manager, but he was a fantastic man manager.
He knew how and when to treat players to mr nice guy and mr angry.
He was also excellent at knowing when to treat them as individuals and and as a group.
But he was very lucky to have the full support of the utd board, not many managers get to fall out with the likes of Beckham, keane, stam etc and not feel the heat.
It does help when you're winning of course.[/QUOTE]
Agree with the other stuff but can't agree with the bolded bit, he was one of the best if not the best manager in my lifetime.
Did a good job at St Mirren, made Aberdeen excellent and beat some great sides including Real Madrid to win the Cup Winners Cup and then after a sticky start to his Man Utd. career took them to title after title amongst cup glories. Gutted we didn't get him we he left Aberdeen, would he had survived at Spurs we'll never know.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Our peers were and are the other 19 clubs in the Premier League. In the FA cup there's 91 other clubs. In Europe as many clubs as there are in the respective association members. That's our peer group, and by that measure across the three competitions we're regularly in - Domestic League, Domestic Cup and European tournament, we're in a high percentile. Put it this way if I was hiring for my work, and I was offered Tottenham or Crystal Palace from the Prem, I'd have Spurs - same as if I was offered Tottenham or Crawley town in the FA Cup or spurs over KV Mechelen in europe. The only other metric involved in measuring performance revolves around spending, and the likes of Leeds, Blackburn, have proved that is often temporary and fraught with danger if done badly.

Regards managers and the desirability of our club, the overall picture has remained "sleeping giant" for a generation. We don't win something every season, we are there or thereabouts and we are coming off the back of a spell where we had a manager who made our team overachieve. There's nothing wrong with over achieving, its practically the only way to break the hold the rich clubs have on competitions now (think Wigan a few years ago in the cup), but when the leader of that over achievement left we reached for someone whose skill lay not in improving players but buying top ones and creating a team that way.

The only real mistake I stick on with our chairman is the appointment of Mourinho, as he just wasn't the guy to take us up a level with our business philosophy. Sure it was a statement, but it was vital after Jose we didn't do that again. Hence, no to Conte. The only mitigation I can give to appointing Jose was that if covid hadn't happened Levy night have been looking to back the manager better than in the end he could, financially.

We are in a hiatus at the moment while poch gets his PSG itch scratched. Once he's done that he will be back I suspect. Nuno/an other will be a stop gap til then. It's a risky strategy but how do you pass up a guy who is so skilled and loved the club so much?

Personally I'd now go all out for Potter, just not sure if the board would go for it.

Interesting that you judge our peers to be all of those 19 other PL clubs. I bet if you asked fans of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project or Arsenal who their peers were the percentage who would list the other 19 PL clubs would be a number approaching zero.

There is a story from Matt Law that says Potter let it be known that he wasn't interested in the Spurs job in the Summer. Something about him not being prepared to risk his growing reputation by working at Spurs. Of course could just be made up rubbish, or not. Only Potter himself and Daniel Levy really know the answer to that question. The Spurs job is a very, very difficult one though as the expectations from the owners seem to sit quite a long way above the resources provided.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Jose was such a bad match for us, just as we were a bad match for him.
He obviously thought he could rock up here, whip the players into a shape, win a trophy and move on to better things on the back of it, reflecting in the glory.
The fact he could not see the mental fragility of that/this squad speaks volumes about him.

I'd love poch back, but i can't see it working. The expectations would be enormous, and nothing is going to fix this situation quickly.
Even though we appear to be recruiting just exactly the rigbt type of player for him i just can't see him being given the time unless it all falls into place immediately. And this is spurs, so that's not going to happen.

Why would Pochettino come back anyway? He overachieved for four, consistent years without being properly backed and then got sacked at the first downturn. It is clear that Tottenham needs him far more than he needs Tottenham now.

 

[glasgowspur]

[QUOTE="glasgowspur, post: 1506422, member: 6666"I honestly don't think Fergie was a great football manager, but he was a fantastic man manager.
He knew how and when to treat players to mr nice guy and mr angry.
He was also excellent at knowing when to treat them as individuals and and as a group.
But he was very lucky to have the full support of the utd board, not many managers get to fall out with the likes of Beckham, keane, stam etc and not feel the heat.
It does help when you're winning of course.

Agree with the other stuff but can't agree with the bolded bit, he was one of the best if not the best manager in my lifetime.
Did a good job at St Mirren, made Aberdeen excellent and beat some great sides including Real Madrid to win the Cup Winners Cup and then after a sticky start to his Man Utd. career took them to title after title amongst cup glories. Gutted we didn't get him we he left Aberdeen, would he had survived at Spurs we'll never know.[/QUOTE]


Don’t get me wrong, not saying he wasn't a very good football manager, just not one of the greats.
I don't remember him at st mirren but i did get to see his Aberdeen teams and they were similar to what his utd team turned into, hungry, quick and aggressive (in a good way sense) with a good blend of steel and style.
But for me he wasn't an innovative, new style manager who changed the game.

 

[harr1984]

Would you agree the style against Wolves in the League was different compared to Wolves in the Cup?

I think Nuno’s been experimenting, and he’s figuring out what each guy is capable of. I just hope it leads somewhere good soon. I can’t really take feeling like we are back to the Sherwood / AVB days, as if the last 7 years never happened.

Exactly, and Nuno has had to experiment as he didnt have his top players all pre season. We are only six games into the season, this has effectively been his pre season with his first team and even then its been fudged with internationals and injuries.

I had to double check the table and we are just 4points off top 4 having got Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project and Arse away out of the way already. Sure the football has to improve, but the way some wet the bed on here you'd think the club was about to cease existence. Every team bar maybe Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea are going to have these kind of dips - more than once aswell, as the quality of the PL is at a very high level, even the mid to lower end teams have some really good players. It's our turn right now, just as it was Arsenal's a couple of weeks ago and everyone knew then that they would pick up just as we will.....

 

[Baleforce]

Agree with the other stuff but can't agree with the bolded bit, he was one of the best if not the best manager in my lifetime.
Did a good job at St Mirren, made Aberdeen excellent and beat some great sides including Real Madrid to win the Cup Winners Cup and then after a sticky start to his Man Utd. career took them to title after title amongst cup glories. Gutted we didn't get him we he left Aberdeen, would he had survived at Spurs we'll never know.

Don’t get me wrong, not saying he wasn't a very good football manager, just not one of the greats.
I don't remember him at st mirren but i did get to see his Aberdeen teams and they were similar to what his utd team turned into, hungry, quick and aggressive (in a good way sense) with a good blend of steel and style.
But for me he wasn't an innovative, new style manager who changed the game.[/QUOTE]

I reckon he was, he built 3 great teams at United, that won in different ways.