Next Spurs manager mega-thread

[NewYorkSpurs]

Fellaini cost about ?17m

Shhhh facts and numbers are irrelevant.

 

[africanspurs]

Obviously his Barca exploits are excellent, but do you think they are transferable?

probably not.

but who is better between him and AVB in your opinion?

 

[indianspur]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but does anyone remember Guardiola being heavily linked to us as a player? Back in the days when we'd be linked to Effenburg every window. I wonder if any relationships were built back then (I'm sure Levy was around)?

it was back in 2001, when Levy just took over and appointed Hoddle, and in that first summer of transfer spec and activity yes Guardiola was heavily linked to us on a free transfer from Barca and we were well in it till the last minute when he instead decided to go to Italy.

Levy was after a series of free transfers back then, Sheringham, Bunjevicic, Guardiola, another name that i cant remember and of course we were heavily chasing Ziege

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

probably not.

but who is better between him and AVB in your opinion?

In what way?

The obvious answer based upon "product" is Pep all the way. His team was radical, incredible and enjoyed amazing success. No brainer.

But then, has Pep proven he can do it elsewhere? AVB has succeeded at two clubs go, proven his skills are (in part at least) transferable - as far as being a manager go is he better?

Seriously mate I supect you are fishing for something!

The obvious answer is Pep, but I think despite his incredible work he will need to prove it elsewhere in order to be a truly great manager.

Without the tools at his disposal at Barca (which Im well aware he helped create) can he "do it"?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I can only find two ?10m+ players on this list, Fellaini and Yakubu. I know that Fellaini has his critics on here but he has been a success there and when he leaves Everton it will be for a bigger club. I'd agree that Yakubu wasn't a great success.

I would suggest over 6m is relatively big money for Everton, given that they are so in trouble financially and cant afford a great deal more.

Baines at 6m was good business, Jelavic at 5.5 looks quality - go past that and you are into very shaky territory.

You also highlight that he simply hasnt the experience buying at 'our level' (damn that sounds obnoxious).

We can grab players at 7-10m with ease, 2 or 3 a window (after sales). We have gone to 16m before, and near on a couple of occasions. We have apparently been willing to top that.

This is a completely different level of buying, and one that Moyes hasnt shown himself capable of IMHO.

And with the squad that we have its essential buys are top class

 

[charlietheyid]

Didier Deschamps has annouced this morning that he is leaving Marseille.

FOOTBALL - Tired by financial problems and disputes within the club, Didier Deschamps sees more interest to stay at Marseille ... After three years on the bench of Olympique de Marseille, Didier Deschamps has decided to end his story with the club OM. The team on Tuesday reveals that "DD" would have made ​​his decision several weeks. Relationships between heavy with Jose Anigo and austerity plan desired by Margarita Louis-Dreyfus, the reasons to continue to be rare start. Vincent Labrune would already be aware of this decision. President and Marseilles, which refuses to confirm information already would work to find his successor. The names of Eric Gerets, Antoine Elie Baup DELETED back emphatically on the side of the Commandery.

Now Tottenham? Regarding the result of the coaching career of Didier Deschamps, rumors send him to Tottenham. His agent, Jean-Pierre Bernes, is trying to convince Spurs to hire him to take over from Harry Redknapp, thanked in June. For now, some details remain to be solved between OM and Deschamps, who wish to separate amicably. The termination clause is set at 3.5 million. And former captain of France could be used as leverage to fly to other climes.

http://www.20minutes.fr/sport/football/960475-didier-deschamps-va-quitter-om

 

[Steed Train]

AAAAAHHH seriously we need to sort this out, fed up of reading the relative merits of each managerial candidate when realistically we're all tinkling in the wind and have no idea who is going to be hired.

If this becomes another last minute Tottenham special its going to give a manager no time to instill his philosophy. When is our first friendly?

 

[africanspurs]

In what way?

The obvious answer based upon "product" is Pep all the way. His team was radical, incredible and enjoyed amazing success. No brainer.

But then, has Pep proven he can do it elsewhere? AVB has succeeded at two clubs go, proven his skills are (in part at least) transferable - as far as being a manager go is he better?

Seriously mate I supect you are fishing for something!

The obvious answer is Pep, but I think despite his incredible work he will need to prove it elsewhere in order to be a truly great manager.

Without the tools at his disposal at Barca (which Im well aware he helped create) can he "do it"?

you know me too well, i was indeed baiting.

AVB and Guardiola cant be named in the same sentence in my view.

agreed totally with the idea that pep has done it at one club but fact of the matter is that the various levels he has done it at i would dare say trumps anything i would give in AVB's CV. Yes the training and breeding of talent through the Barca youth ranks, maintaining the playing system through the young kids to the senior players...being a top class player himself , neck deep in beautiful continental playing styles and systems....playing at the top stage...transferring that experience and knowledge into a successful coaching career (it is actually possible to fudge up with the barca team as it happens...as they showed prior to changing their system (before davids showed them the way)

i cant think of anything that AVB can do better than pep (even though its all hear say and guesswork on my part)

as far as transferable skills go, avb didnt transfer anything from the Portuguese league to here , i'd find it odd for someone to question the superior coach and not the one that had a decent team and made them look mediocre.

just to point out, we are NOT getting pep. its a pipe dream, not going to happen

 

[rxl]

Deschamps currently 40/1 with PP if there's anyone interested in a punt...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ive questioned AVB extensively, getting lazy in not going over old ground I guess.

AVB went from Academia to Porto and implemeneted a winning/successful style at both. Chelsea was obviously a flop, but he had shown he can transfer his ideas from club to club.

Guardiola hasnt had the opportunity yet, so I wont critisise him for not doing it, but its fair to say its just an unkown - therefore could go either way.

I agree fully they simply arent comparible at this point. In 5 years maybe, but right now? There is no common ground on which to compare.

Mourinho didnt have a playing career, he didnt have the extensive experience of 99% of managers out there - and yet he is now widely accepted as the best around. Experience of the game isnt the be all/end all. Though in Guardiolas case, the radical tactics he put in place at Barca showed a very deep understanding of the game and a strong view on how it should be played - I think its fair to say he is using his knowledge.

What I would really like to see is how he does at another club, with less able/technical players, where perhaps he needs to adopt a more direct/rigid style to get results and see where he goes from there - that will be the real test of whether or not he is a great or a one off success.

The big difference between the two at this point, for me, is that Guardiola took something radical to the top level - but under fairly specific and rare circumstance. AVB has taken a more "tried and tested" approach, perfected his version of it - and managed to apply it in 2 of 3 appointments*

Long term, I think AVB will always be able to do a good job with his approach. Im not sure if he has a "great" side in him though. Guardiola has created footballing perfection already (in many views) - was it a one time thing? Will he ever reach that height again?


*AVBS failure at Chelsea. On the footballing front - how bad a failure was it? Ignoring the media/player relation breakdown - how BAD was his Chelsea team?

In 6 months of the season they had some terrible results. However he still had a near 50% win rate, a very positive goal difference and was sitting in 5th only a few points from 4th. Considering the massive transition they were going through and despite the off field issues I really dont think thats "bad" at all.

What did people expect. With a total change of playing system and the introduction of 4 players to the side this was a transitional season and some bad results had to be expected. On balance I would say they were doing a good job. Ramires, Mata and Sturridge were at times sensational. They scored a lot of goals. They were in with an excellent shout of CL qualification via the league and when he was sacked were progressing in the FA Cup and were in the CL Group stages (on a bad result admitedly).

Football wise - how much of a failure was he? And considering his system achieved that much against much resistance, how would it fare at a club willing to embrace it?

 

[africanspurs]

Ive questioned AVB extensively, getting lazy in not going over old ground I guess.

AVB went from Academia to Porto and implemeneted a winning/successful style at both. Chelsea was obviously a flop, but he had shown he can transfer his ideas from club to club.

Guardiola hasnt had the opportunity yet, so I wont critisise him for not doing it, but its fair to say its just an unkown - therefore could go either way.

I agree fully they simply arent comparible at this point. In 5 years maybe, but right now? There is no common ground on which to compare.

Mourinho didnt have a playing career, he didnt have the extensive experience of 99% of managers out there - and yet he is now widely accepted as the best around. Experience of the game isnt the be all/end all. Though in Guardiolas case, the radical tactics he put in place at Barca showed a very deep understanding of the game and a strong view on how it should be played - I think its fair to say he is using his knowledge.

What I would really like to see is how he does at another club, with less able/technical players, where perhaps he needs to adopt a more direct/rigid style to get results and see where he goes from there - that will be the real test of whether or not he is a great or a one off success.

The big difference between the two at this point, for me, is that Guardiola took something radical to the top level - but under fairly specific and rare circumstance. AVB has taken a more "tried and tested" approach, perfected his version of it - and managed to apply it in 2 of 3 appointments*

Long term, I think AVB will always be able to do a good job with his approach. Im not sure if he has a "great" side in him though. Guardiola has created footballing perfection already (in many views) - was it a one time thing? Will he ever reach that height again?


*AVBS failure at Chelsea. On the footballing front - how bad a failure was it? Ignoring the media/player relation breakdown - how BAD was his Chelsea team?

In 6 months of the season they had some terrible results. However he still had a near 50% win rate, a very positive goal difference and was sitting in 5th only a few points from 4th. Considering the massive transition they were going through and despite the off field issues I really dont think thats "bad" at all.

What did people expect. With a total change of playing system and the introduction of 4 players to the side this was a transitional season and some bad results had to be expected. On balance I would say they were doing a good job. Ramires, Mata and Sturridge were at times sensational. They scored a lot of goals. They were in with an excellent shout of CL qualification via the league and when he was sacked were progressing in the FA Cup and were in the CL Group stages (on a bad result admitedly).

Football wise - how much of a failure was he? And considering his system achieved that much against much resistance, how would it fare at a club willing to embrace it?

you see, this is what i'm concerned about with regards to many that want AVB. its excuses built on excuses and second chances for him and his work, yet you want Pep to jump though hoops and see how HE does with less technical players?

dont get me wrong its a valid point..but why not extend the same criteria to AVB? his first BIG role was pretty bad...taking away the statistical win ratio and just an application of your own personal knowledge of things like your understanding of football, knowledge of the premiership and its playing styles, knowledge of the chelsea players and what they are capable off, the demeanor of footballers in general, styles , game plans , how an opposition performs against various teams....., in this case against chelsea...etc etc etc..., from my perspective (albeit a little bit influenced by gossip) his time at chelsea wasnt good. Not saying that the guy is stupid, he's clearly intelligent and knowledgeable, but he really didnt transfer any of his major skills over to HIS next job and he didnt utilise his resources properly and things were falling apart. they were getting stagnant or worse..if he had stayed there Chelsea would not have won the CL , their league form would have sunk some more and they would have been looking to get rid of EVERYONE of the players to rebuild again...IMO. i can categorically say that AVB was leading a charmed life all things considered by the time he was sacked.....all this beautiful football you were talking about? i must have missed it......all i remember was him favouring overlapping fulbacks...nothing beautiful in an earth shattering context for me...and chelsea were suicidal at the back and porous..something that you dropped on martinez's doorstep as a negative

and lets face it.....people keep talking about what he did in academica, for all we know that could have been a dead cat bounce? it could have been a ramos to redknapp type scenario. and then there is the stand out dominant team in portugal with the best players in portugal .....one of the worst leagues in big money europe. the record was extrememly impressive but the next thing is ...can he deliver on the big stage? well he had a shot and it didnt work out. could be a multitude of reasons

btw..i have no idea what you mean by "tried and tested" approach,..and the comparison to Guardiola..can you explain that? what 'radical' thing did he take to the top? what rare and specific circumstances are you referring to? all sounds pretty vague to me, i dont understand where you are coming from

You see , i see it more of a live or die by my choice type argument...cause somehow the guy that has reached 'perfection' , won the CL twice, rubber stamped a footballing system that has been around for a while (coming from the dutch), has accolades that AVB could only dream about...has to jump through hoops to prove himself and show what he can do, compared to someone that has tried the big stage and didnt succeed...the latter doesnt have to jump through hoops, just come on right in.....but you (pep ) over there with your Champions league medal and ability to play some breathtaking footy if you had the right pieces...you wait outside, actually better yet..go prove yourself somewhere esle then we'll take a look at you after. this is the way i see things when people try to argue AVB over literally all else

just to clarify ..i do agree that pep might fail without his techy players, i do think that we have no idea how he would fare outside his comfort zone. i agree that AVB's record is very good outside of england...what i dont understand is the need to force cover over AVBs faults in order to make him a more attractive option than everyone else..including as it seems.....Pep Guardiola

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Im not making excuses, if I were I would begin to question how much the player revolt was or wasnt his fault, and how much it translated to the field of play. Ive done no such thing, Ive simply said he had some excellent performances from players, some good results and was still in the running - does that really qualify as the disaster its so often painted as?

I KNOW things went wrong at Chelsea. I KNOW he bears a great deal of responsibility for that. What I dont know is how much, all of it? Some of it? More so the players than him? Abramovic? Who actually knows for sure?

So looking at AVB I know he did a good job in his first two roles, and while he ultimately failed in his 3rd I think the positives about his tenure there are ignored.

So he has worked with lesser players in Portugal, top players in Portugal and top players in England.

Not making excuses, just taking a view.

AVB - "tried and tested" - I mean his 433 system. Its a widely used system of play. He has his angle on it but its basically tweaking an exisiting entity rather than creating something more obscure.

As we have discussed, AVB and Guardiola are entirely seperate entities, not comparible. I am talking about them as such. What I think of AVB, what I think of Guardiola - not AVB vs Guardiola. Both have pros, both have cons IMO. The cons with Guardiola are all the unknowns, the pros with AVB is the success in multiple places. The cons with AVB are what we saw at Chelsea (and my comments around that were not excuses, just perspective) and the pros with Guardiola are that if he gets it right again you basically have the best footballing coach around...

Speaking about Pep, in isolation of AVB, I would like to see more of him to try and work him out.

Barcas system is pretty radical IMO, the intense pressing, the passing stats - the way that whenever the keeper gets the ball the full backs are no where to be seen and the CBs run to the corners... The whole set up and mentality is radical. Who in their right mind plays the ball to their CBs out near the corner flag? And yet they did - and with good reason - from the back they immediately stretched the play and opened up pockets of space all over the place. The way they manipulate space and the shape of the team - IMO its all pretty radical to be honest. If it wasnt more people would have been doing it!

The rare circumstances are a man taking over a club that is in his blood, that has the strongest footballling mentality, as his first job, where top class players are regularly churned out of the academy - where 90% of the team is home grown, where even 70m buys struggle to settle... Its a very unique situation, wouldnt you agree?

Im not sure what comparison comment you mean, except to say that they are two completely different coaches with no common ground behind them at the beginning of their careers - in time we will have more on which to base opinioins of them, but right now I just dont think the material is there.

I dont want him to jump through hoops, I just want to see more of him. I want to see how he fares when he doesnt have the Barca academy behind him, Xavi, Fabregas, Iniesta and Messi at his disposal and he needs to develop from scratch with breeze blocks instead of fine marble.

He achieved amazing things - but with amazing ingredients - I would like to see what he can cook with only the ready steady cook store cupboard!

 

[africanspurs]

Im not making excuses, if I were I would begin to question how much the player revolt was or wasnt his fault, and how much it translated to the field of play. Ive done no such thing, Ive simply said he had some excellent performances from players, some good results and was still in the running - does that really qualify as the disaster its so often painted as?

I KNOW things went wrong at Chelsea. I KNOW he bears a great deal of responsibility for that. What I dont know is how much, all of it? Some of it? More so the players than him? Abramovic? Who actually knows for sure?

So looking at AVB I know he did a good job in his first two roles, and while he ultimately failed in his 3rd I think the positives about his tenure there are ignored.

So he has worked with lesser players in Portugal, top players in Portugal and top players in England.

Not making excuses, just taking a view.

AVB - "tried and tested" - I mean his 433 system. Its a widely used system of play. He has his angle on it but its basically tweaking an exisiting entity rather than creating something more obscure.

As we have discussed, AVB and Guardiola are entirely seperate entities, not comparible. I am talking about them as such. What I think of AVB, what I think of Guardiola - not AVB vs Guardiola. Both have pros, both have cons IMO. The cons with Guardiola are all the unknowns, the pros with AVB is the success in multiple places. The cons with AVB are what we saw at Chelsea (and my comments around that were not excuses, just perspective) and the pros with Guardiola are that if he gets it right again you basically have the best footballing coach around...

Speaking about Pep, in isolation of AVB, I would like to see more of him to try and work him out.

Barcas system is pretty radical IMO, the intense pressing, the passing stats - the way that whenever the keeper gets the ball the full backs are no where to be seen and the CBs run to the corners... The whole set up and mentality is radical. Who in their right mind plays the ball to their CBs out near the corner flag? And yet they did - and with good reason - from the back they immediately stretched the play and opened up pockets of space all over the place. The way they manipulate space and the shape of the team - IMO its all pretty radical to be honest. If it wasnt more people would have been doing it!

The rare circumstances are a man taking over a club that is in his blood, that has the strongest footballling mentality, as his first job, where top class players are regularly churned out of the academy - where 90% of the team is home grown, where even 70m buys struggle to settle... Its a very unique situation, wouldnt you agree?

Im not sure what comparison comment you mean, except to say that they are two completely different coaches with no common ground behind them at the beginning of their careers - in time we will have more on which to base opinioins of them, but right now I just dont think the material is there.

I dont want him to jump through hoops, I just want to see more of him. I want to see how he fares when he doesnt have the Barca academy behind him, Xavi, Fabregas, Iniesta and Messi at his disposal and he needs to develop from scratch with breeze blocks instead of fine marble.

He achieved amazing things - but with amazing ingredients - I would like to see what he can cook with only the ready steady cook store cupboard!

AVB has had success in multiple places? a part of a season in academica, and one season in porto shouldnt count as multiple

if you ever have a chance, read the mini hand book "louis van gaal and the ajax coaches"...that stuff happening at Barca wasnt THAT radical, the theory had been done before and for all intents and purposes ajax during their dominance made mor of their tactics with inferior ingredients than barca did, i think its also worth noting that pressing barca is a futile attempt more times than none so in general teams dont do it high up the pitch where barca can have superior numbers, added to this...their holding midfielder is never far from the two spaced out CBs and the goal keeper is actually a passing sweeper of sorts, teams do mimic but not to the extent of barca due to them not risking the keeper to be an outfield player in that when they have the ball they will utilise 3 at the back etc etc.........but thats a side note

we could go round and round with this thing but i see we are on two different sides. i wouldnt question Pep, he is the guy i would give 5 years to make his mark if needed.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Multiple = more than one O

I didnt say Pep was orignial, I said it was radical. And compared to the rest of football at this point his ideas were certainly radical IMO.

And all credit to him, as I said it was clear football thinking behind it - it wasnt just random.

If Guardiola came in I would be ridiculously excited, who wouldnt? Im not against the idea at all - I just think its something of a leap into the unknown.

And regardless of him coming to us or (almost certainly) not I am very interested to see how he gets on in his next role. There isnt a club in the world set up like Barca, so it will be the acid test of him as a manager IMO.

I think its a perfectly valid thing to ask if Pep can transfer his success/style elsewhere. Thats just a question, it has no undertone at all.

I can be pro-AVb and pro-Pep if I choose, its not like Im only allowed to think one manager is any good!

 

[Rorschach]

I believe Guardiola is widely credited with developing the defensive aspect of Barca's playing style - the whole 5 second rule, high pressure, 3-1 rule etc.

 

[ArcspacE]

What is the 5 second rule? (in football that is)

 

[Rorschach]

What is the 5 second rule? (in football that is)

If Barca haven’t won the ball back within five seconds of losing it, they then retreat and build a compact ten-man wall. The distance between the front man in the wall (typically Messi) and their last defender (say, Carles Puyol) is only 25 to 30 metres. It’s hard for any opponent to pass their way through such a small space. The Rome final was a perfect demonstration of Barcelona’s wall: whenever United won the ball and kept it, they faced eleven precisely positioned opponents, who stood there and said, in effect: “Try and get through this.”
It’s easy for Barcelona to be compact, both when pressing and when drawing up their wall, because their players spend most of the game very near each other. Xavi and Iniesta in particular seldom stray far from the ball. Cruijff recently told the former England manager Steve McClaren, now with FC Twente in Holland: "Do you know how Barcelona win the ball back so quickly? It's because they don't have to run back more than 10 metres as they never pass the ball more than 10 metres."


http://www.miostadium.com/opinions/simon-kuper/barcelonas-secret-soccer-success

 

[ArcspacE]

Cheers, mate - very good analysis

So what was Chelsea's rule in the CL then?

 

[Superted]

I thought the 5 second rule was more about when they lose possession they allow 5 seconds to press on the opponent because they know that's when the opponent are most vulnerable to turning it over again. If 5 seconds pass and they haven't win back the ball, they retreat defensively. I guess similar to what you said, but the 5 seconds is frantic stuff.

 

[Rorschach]

Cheers, mate - very good analysis

So what was Chelsea's rule in the CL then?

Who knows? Chelsea had stepped outside the rules of probability in the semi-finals and final. To take a battering like that and win a match is unlikely but to do it 3 times in a row really is a cosmic joke (on us!!). Yes, it still stings.
I guess Chelsea don't obey any rules, at all, in anything. C.UNTS