Next Spurs manager mega-thread

[BrainOfLevy]

I;m going to be totally honest here. I read the what BOL posted about how AVB managed a situation where the player broke a rule and i thought wtf, what exactly is so great or revolutionary about that? so he defended the player in public but punished the player infront of his teammates so basically he dealt with the situation in house. Ok but whats different about that and what a lot of other managers do? what am i missing.

It's not that revolutionary, but I don't think there's going to be one particular aspect that makes someone revolutionary. Thomas Tuchel at Mainz apparently instructs as a rule that everyone must look into each others eyes when talking for example. It sounds quite revolutionary, but it remains to be seen whether he has the collective qualities needed to be a truly successful coach. Basically that was just an attempt to show that he values the collective more than the individual, it wasn't a key part of what makes him a manager. But I also acknowledged that it may rub some players up the wrong way, AVB prefers to do things infront of the team so that there are no secrets, but if an experienced player is called out, he may not appreciate it.

Fortunately we have a young team, and if someone isn't putting the effort in, well they probably don't have the standing to start an uprising. It seems simply that AVB fosters a team spirit, he is very open with his players, he becomes their friend, they can always talk to him about absolutely any issue and the atmosphere around the club will be enjoyable if everyone agrees to it. But in return he demands extremely high work ethic and concentration. Not a bad thing, but if someone like Drogba (I don't know if it was him that started a war vs AVB, but just for examples sake) didn't put effort in and AVB called him out on it...it wouldn't exactly be the first time Drogba has had a problem with a manager, because he had a problem with Scolari too. Infact in the example about the player having a night out, the group actually gave it's opinion too. They decided what they thought the punishment should be and had an input - so it's not about calling someone out and embarassing them, it's ensuring everyone is working towards the same, agreed, objectives and principles.

Or here's another example of man management: a forward of his at Academica had lost twins when they were born prematurely and AVB did everything he could to help. He immediately went to the hospital to offer support (pretty standard thing to do) but also got in touch with doctors that he knew so that they would be on hand for the player's wife and even spoke to people he knew at a clinic so that the wife could get the best possible treatment in order to become pregnant again as quickly as possible. This wasn't an isolated incident. I know some people might look at that and think it was all pretty normal stuff to do, but I'm just trying to show that he does try to go above and beyond for his players, and isn't the arrogant bastard that the English media have made him out to be.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Stop being facetious, MK. It's tedious.

BOL has read the book. Which is more than you have done, apparently.

I don't like people who debate by passing off opinions as facts, or who make snide remarks. I don't mind aggressive posters who always state I think or IMO.

As for BOL, he IS passing off like he has some extra knowledge. So it was a genuine question and not me being facetious.

I have no interest in reading AVB's book to be honest. He is dull as fudge when being interviewed, so I can't imagine he'll be anymore riveting in textual format. And I don't really care what people have to say (possibly why I didn't get as worked up as many about Redknapp's comments in the press every week). All I care about is Spurs, and what AVB (if chosen) does as our Manager. The past will be instantly wiped clean the moment he joins us because whatever he did before us (success or failures) means nothing IMO. Only what someone does at ours matters.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

It's not that revolutionary, but I don't think there's going to be one particular aspect that makes someone revolutionary. Thomas Tuchel at Mainz apparently instructs as a rule that everyone must look into each others eyes when talking for example. It sounds quite revolutionary, but it remains to be seen whether he has the collective qualities needed to be a truly successful coach. Basically that was just an attempt to show that he values the collective more than the individual, it wasn't a key part of what makes him a manager. But I also acknowledged that it may rub some players up the wrong way, AVB prefers to do things infront of the team so that there are no secrets, but if an experienced player is called out, he may not appreciate it.

Fortunately we have a young team, and if someone isn't putting the effort in, well they probably don't have the standing to start an uprising. It seems simply that AVB fosters a team spirit, he is very open with his players, he becomes their friend, they can always talk to him about absolutely any issue and the atmosphere around the club will be enjoyable if everyone agrees to it. But in return he demands extremely high work ethic and concentration. Not a bad thing, but if someone like Drogba (I don't know if it was him that started a war vs AVB, but just for examples sake) didn't put effort in and AVB called him out on it...it wouldn't exactly be the first time Drogba has had a problem with a manager, because he had a problem with Scolari too. Infact in the example about the player having a night out, the group actually gave it's opinion too. They decided what they thought the punishment should be and had an input - so it's not about calling someone out and embarassing them, it's ensuring everyone is working towards the same, agreed, objectives and principles.

Or here's another example of man management: a forward of his at Academica had lost twins when they were born prematurely and AVB did everything he could to help. He immediately went to the hospital to offer support (pretty standard thing to do) but also got in touch with doctors that he knew so that they would be on hand for the player's wife and even spoke to people he knew at a clinic so that the wife could get the best possible treatment in order to become pregnant again as quickly as possible. This wasn't an isolated incident. I know some people might look at that and think it was all pretty normal stuff to do, but I'm just trying to show that he does try to go above and beyond for his players, and isn't the arrogant bastard that the English media have made him out to be.

Doesn't sound revolutionary to me. Sounds like a complete dingdonghead of an egomaniac who has listed to too many wacko psychologists #-o May as well bring in Eileen!

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I've read them, and to be honest I don't agree with a lot of what is said. A lot of positive spin, and some glaring issues there that people are refusing to address because they already rate him as the next coming.

What are the glaring issues? What don't you agree with? Of course the book is going to be somewhat positive - I've only read it because I took a great interest once there looked to be a serious chance he could join us. I wanted to know why someone so highly rated could so spectacularly fail at a club, and I wanted to know if it was likely he would do well here. I don't know him personally, but I said a few weeks ago that my ideal would be Harry out and AVB in...and since it looked like it may be happening it's made me want to really get an insight into what could be happening at our club.

But what don't you agree with? If the biographer says 'This is AVB's philosophy...he agrees with giving players freedom to express themselves' are you going to disagree because you believe he is tactically rigid? Well, fine. It's your opinion. But I'm not simply repeating the authors opinion, I'm providing quotes from leading people within the game that have shaped AVB's thinking. Some of that stuff simply IS fact. I'm not saying he will definitely be a great manager for us and lead us to untold glory, I'm saying that the guy values certain things in his managerial philosophy. That much can't be denied. You can say he is overly tactical if you want, but from what it sounds like, he really doesn't intend to be. The problem at Chelsea seemed to be something else.

 

[indianspur]

maybe AVB will personally book a cab to go and pick up GDS on time in the morning so the poor lad can make it to training on time after a big night out on the lash. Even better, AVB can go round personally and both can get to training on time together!!

thats a personal touch and very understanding

 

[indianspur]

I don't like people who debate by passing off opinions as facts, or who make snide remarks. I don't mind aggressive posters who always state I think or IMO.

As for BOL, he IS passing off like he has some extra knowledge. So it was a genuine question and not me being facetious.

I have no interest in reading AVB's book to be honest. He is dull as fudge when being interviewed, so I can't imagine he'll be anymore riveting in textual format. And I don't really care what people have to say (possibly why I didn't get as worked up as many about Redknapp's comments in the press every week). All I care about is Spurs, and what AVB (if chosen) does as our Manager. The past will be instantly wiped clean the moment he joins us because whatever he did before us (success or failures) means nothing IMO. Only what someone does at ours matters.

ooohhhh but you will be the first to jump on his back when things go wrong. Watch this space, will be interesting

 

[Kingdawson]

"Even at Academica, he got a team that was bottom of the league and looking certain to be relegated, to playing a good possession football in the way that he desires. So I think that flies in the face of both the Moyes argument (he can only work with what he is given) and also the Chelsea argument, that he persisted with tactics that didn't suit the players. If Academica could pull it off successfully, surely Chelsea's players could have given it more of a bash?"

This is very wrong imo. AVB's success with Academia is in the Portuguese league which is at least 4 levels below the premiership. Maybe in that poor league a team that is fighting relegation can suddenly transform into an attack minded team that plays free flowing football but in this league it's best that you play to your strengths. Of course there's exceptions to the rule but generally in this league you play to your strengths so i don't see how thats a bad thing.
The second part is even more wrong. "If Academia could pull it off successfully, surely Chelsea players could give it a bash?" hmmmmm no because we're not talking about the quality of personnel but we're whether or not the personnel can play that specific formation you are trying to implement. Academia might have a 11 average players that are far inferior to Chelsea in terms of quality but the individual players might poses the attributes needed to be successful in that formation (something chelski didn't have).


"He lost two key players when he joined Porto, and only signed Moutinho"

Ok so he lost 2 players to teams outside of the Portuguese league and bought in your rivals (and direct competition for the league) best player? you can easily put an argument saying that they were in a better position after those dealings.


"AVB would frequently ask the players questions. He wanted to know whether they felt comfortable with the tactical system he intended to use. Very close to what Mourinho calls 'guide discovery'. "

A case of believing what you read over what your eyes tell you imo. You think he did this at chelski? you honestly think in your mind that he asked the Chelsea players frequently if they were comfortable with the formation and those spoilt brats all informed him that they were? i mean gimme a break.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I don't like people who debate by passing off opinions as facts, or who make snide remarks. I don't mind aggressive posters who always state I think or IMO.

As for BOL, he IS passing off like he has some extra knowledge. So it was a genuine question and not me being facetious.

I have no interest in reading AVB's book to be honest. He is dull as fudge when being interviewed, so I can't imagine he'll be anymore riveting in textual format. And I don't really care what people have to say (possibly why I didn't get as worked up as many about Redknapp's comments in the press every week). All I care about is Spurs, and what AVB (if chosen) does as our Manager. The past will be instantly wiped clean the moment he joins us because whatever he did before us (success or failures) means nothing IMO. Only what someone does at ours matters.

Well, without wanting to sound arrogant, I kind of do have some extra knowledge on him compared to yourself, if I chose to spend my Saturday night reading the book on him and you haven't actually read it.

Where have I passed off an opinion as fact? Don't really understand your point there - if I have done, I apologise, because I too don't like it when people do that. But all I've done is try and share some interesting insights from a book that is about potentially our next manager. If you don't care, fair enough.

 

[indianspur]

the fact that AVB isnt a cheeky chappy ****ney with thousands of rent-a-quotes is going to weigh heavily against him it seems

 

[jimmyb]

I don't like people who debate by passing off opinions as facts, or who make snide remarks. I don't mind aggressive posters who always state I think or IMO.

???

But the only person making snide remarks was you.

BOL was kind enough to write a detailed precis of AVB's book for the benefit of all who are interested in this discussion. He deserves better than for you to make unwarranted and unprovoked, facetious comments about it.

And I don't really care what people have to say (possibly why I didn't get as worked up as many about Redknapp's comments in the press every week).

And possibly why you feel able repeatedly to construct straw man arguments about what people have to say?

All I care about is Spurs, and what AVB (if chosen) does as our Manager. The past will be instantly wiped clean the moment he joins us because whatever he did before us (success or failures) means nothing IMO. Only what someone does at ours matters.

Good. We can agree on that.

 

[ArcspacE]

the fact that AVB isnt a cheeky chappy ****ney with thousands of rent-a-quotes is going to weigh heavily against him it seems

He's already lost in the minds of many even before he starts - same way it was with Redknapp

 

[indianspur]

Well, without wanting to sound arrogant, I kind of do have some extra knowledge on him compared to yourself, if I chose to spend my Saturday night reading the book on him and you haven't actually read it.

Where have I passed off an opinion as fact? Don't really understand your point there - if I have done, I apologise, because I too don't like it when people do that. But all I've done is try and share some interesting insights from a book that is about potentially our next manager. If you don't care, fair enough.

you dont have to apologize because you have made it very clear you are reading the book and are simply imparting what you have read with the rest of us on here who are interested and dont have an agenda against AVB before he is even announced as the manager of Spurs

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

ooohhhh but you will be the first to jump on his back when things go wrong. Watch this space, will be interesting

He wont, he will be the first to jump on any poster that dares raise a complaint about something AVB does branding them a Harry hater and trying to accuse them of wanting "AVB out" and declaring himself the best fan in the world...

 

[indianspur]

He wont, he will be the first to jump on any poster that dares raise a complaint about something AVB does branding them a Harry hater and trying to accuse them of wanting "AVB out" and declaring himself the best fan in the world...

you're most likely right

 

[jimmyb]

Doesn't sound revolutionary to me. Sounds like a complete dingdonghead of an egomaniac who has listed to too many wacko psychologists #-o May as well bring in Eileen!

I have to say that, for all your glib claims of supporting AVB regardless, should he be appointed Spurs manager, I'm finding it hard to believe you.

The impression could be false but you are very much coming across, at the moment, as a very sore and angry Redknapp supporter who will find fault in AVB at the first opportunity and at every opportunity thereafter.

Edit: oops! My bad. Hadn't realised that you were actually referring to the Mainz manager and not AVB. Apologies.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

"Even at Academica, he got a team that was bottom of the league and looking certain to be relegated, to playing a good possession football in the way that he desires. So I think that flies in the face of both the Moyes argument (he can only work with what he is given) and also the Chelsea argument, that he persisted with tactics that didn't suit the players. If Academica could pull it off successfully, surely Chelsea's players could have given it more of a bash?"

This is very wrong imo. AVB's success with Academia is in the Portuguese league which is at least 4 levels below the premiership. Maybe in that poor league a team that is fighting relegation can suddenly transform into an attack minded team that plays free flowing football but in this league it's best that you play to your strengths. Of course there's exceptions to the rule but generally in this league you play to your strengths so i don't see how thats a bad thing.
The second part is even more wrong. "If Academia could pull it off successfully, surely Chelsea players could give it a bash?" hmmmmm no because we're not talking about the quality of personnel but we're whether or not the personnel can play that specific formation you are trying to implement. Academia might have a 11 average players that are far inferior to Chelsea in terms of quality but the individual players might poses the attributes needed to be successful in that formation (something chelski didn't have).


"He lost two key players when he joined Porto, and only signed Moutinho"

Ok so he lost 2 players to teams outside of the Portuguese league and bought in your rivals (and direct competition for the league) best player? you can easily put an argument saying that they were in a better position after those dealings.


"AVB would frequently ask the players questions. He wanted to know whether they felt comfortable with the tactical system he intended to use. Very close to what Mourinho calls 'guide discovery'. "

A case of believing what you read over what your eyes tell you imo. You think he did this at chelski? you honestly think in your mind that he asked the Chelsea players frequently if they were comfortable with the formation and those spoilt brats all informed him that they were? i mean gimme a break.

I'll be honest, I don't know much about Academica's players. For all I know, they may have been super pacey, excellent ball players in defence, with excellent stamina and ability to pressure high up the pitch in midfield and attack. But I'm going to suggest that they probably weren't. This team was adrift at the bottom of the league, and looked to be going nowhere fast. I feel confident in saying that a back line of Bosingwa, Terry, Luiz and Cole were just as capable of playing AVB's tactics as whoever Academica's players were. Terry is slow yes, but he is not the first slower player to play a high line. Dawson was capable of doing it under Jol. There's only one ball in play, so if it's knocked over the top, the faster of the pairing covers. If it's to feet, the slower defender should put in a quick tackle and not let them turn and face if he is in confrontation. Anyway, I digress. What I'm trying to say is I think if Academica players can do it, then Chelsea players can. No way were they suddenly more suited to it. There's a very small chance of that being the case.

Ok, they signed Moutinho, a good player, but the point I was making there was that it was a special achievement to win the league in the way that they did it. They didn't scrape through a 3 horse race. They won it by 21 points, 36 ahead of 3rd, and undefeated. Scoring more goals and amassing more points per game than Mourinho's Porto. Whatever way you look at it, that's a special achivement.

Don't really know what to say on the last point. I don't know what happened at Chelsea. I would dearly love to know, because it seems so out of sync with the rest of AVB's career. We'll just be speculating if we debate that point.

 

[parklane1]

I have to say that, for all your glib claims of supporting AVB regardless, should he be appointed Spurs manager, I'm finding it hard to believe you.

The impression could be false but you are very much coming across, at the moment, as a very sore and angry Redknapp supporter who will find fault in AVB at the first opportunity and at every opportunity thereafter.

they are going to be a few like that over the coming months.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Doesn't sound revolutionary to me. Sounds like a complete dingdonghead of an egomaniac who has listed to too many wacko psychologists #-o May as well bring in Eileen!

Revolutionary in the sense that a football coach decides that is an important thing that he needs to emphasise at a rule. And he seems to be doing quite well to be fair. In any case, it wasn't the crux of my argument.

 

[indianspur]

jeez after all this speculation and arguing, wouldnt it be funny if Levy hires a guy not even mentioned as a candidate, someone like Rijkaard for example

 

[Kingdawson]

What do people think about Martinez? i have a sneaky feeling he's going to be a very very good manager in time.