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Next Manager?

Robspur12 said:
Ok so please outline those games and explain what you would have down differently. You keep making the same criticism and claiming Poch got everything wrong in those games. Being disappointed that we lost those games doesn't mean we should have won those games.
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Not sure why you keep saying I am claiming Poch got everything wrong. If you read my other posts I did say the players individually and collectively also didn’t step up and arrest a decline. We had seasoned internationals who had experience in big games for club and country so it doesn’t wash with me when people said we didn’t have belief or experience. We always seemed to fail the test in similar circumstances or didn’t learn from what we did wrong in those big moments.

Since you asked for examples of big games where we didn’t do enough to get over the line then here goes;

West Ham away 2015/16 - had a chance to win and go top and put in one of the worst performances of the season
Arsenal home 15/16 - again had a chance to win and go top and blew a 2-1 lead against 10 men, we were hanging on for a point at the end too!
Juve 17-18 - dominated both legs for large parts but lost the tie
Chelsea FA cup 16/17 - The Son at left wing back game
United FA cup 17/18 - played well for 20 mins then froze as soon as they equalised and didn’t offer any resistance in the 2nd half.
Burnley away 18/19 - we were the early game and had the chance to put pressure on the top two but we froze again and Poch lost it on the pitch after the game. I for one think that game was quite damaging to the club and we’ve not been the same since.

Like I said before, Poch and the players were a huge part of getting us into great positions in cups and in the league but the failure to get over the line is also in part down to them. Poch could have been more proactive with subs rather than viewing them as a negative that crushes players. And none of our big players carried us, if one or two players step then the rest follow.

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to hold the opinion that Poch did a great job but we could have done things differently at certain big moments. Hopefully Poch will gain some knowledge and win trophies at PSG. If you want to hold the view that Poch literally couldn’t have done anymore then that’s fine but I don’t see why you expect everyone to have the same uniform opinion of him.
 
billyiddo said:
Yeah don't disagree that there were moments we could have done better- the discussion, for me at least, is about expectation though.

Were we a club that should be demanding domestic trophies along with our league and CL challenges? Not for me and as stated the evidence shows you need a deep squad to go with your strong XI to do both - that's not where we were.
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Financially no but we managed to assemble a squad that IMO was capable of winning trophies. Somehow we signed excellent players on comparatively low salaries when stacked up against what United or Arsenal for example paid their players, for example Eriksen or Alli was far better value for money than Özil or Alexis Sanchez.

If we widen the conversation to say the last decade or so, curious to get your take on whether you think Redknapp had a squad capable of winning things despite being under similar constraints to Poch? We had an excellent squad but some felt we need 1-2 players to propel us from 4th/5th to 2nd/1st. We never had a world class striker under Redknapp don’t forget.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Financially no but we managed to assemble a squad that IMO was capable of winning trophies. Somehow we signed excellent players on comparatively low salaries when stacked up against what United or Arsenal for example paid their players, for example Eriksen or Alli was far better value for money than Özil or Alexis Sanchez.

If we widen the conversation to say the last decade or so, curious to get your take on whether you think Redknapp had a squad capable of winning things despite being under similar constraints to Poch? We had an excellent squad but some felt we need 1-2 players to propel us from 4th/5th to 2nd/1st. We never had a world class striker under Redknapp don’t forget.
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Team, not squad.

Same wrt Redknapp - we haven't ever been in a position that we've been able to back managers how the sides we're competing against back theirs.
 
billyiddo said:
Team, not squad.

Same wrt Redknapp - we haven't ever been in a position that we've been able to back managers how the sides we're competing against back theirs.
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Until this situation changes we will be ‘also rans’ and our managers will struggle to reach the summit.

This is why Levy is building and in the absence of a incoming big investor, is a good fit!
 
billyiddo said:
Team, not squad.

Same wrt Redknapp - we haven't ever been in a position that we've been able to back managers how the sides we're competing against back theirs.
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Maybe. I think we were smarter partly because we had to be as we couldn’t spend what the rest of the big 6 laid out on transfers and wages. Still not sure I would have taken United, Liverpool or Arsenal’s squads from 2014/19 over ours which is the bulk of the Poch years.
 
StephenH said:
Until this situation changes we will be ‘also rans’ and our managers will struggle to reach the summit.

This is why Levy is building and in the absence of a incoming big investor, is a good fit!
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We weren't also rans under Poch, we just prioritised the League and CL over domestic trophies because we had a thin squad. No one cares Klopp done the same with Liverpool.
 
scaramanga said:
I think in Chelsea's case it could only have been oil money that saved them. They really were in the brick.
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They had a Euro bond that was coming up to maturity (I think it was 75m). One of my friends who works in the debt market was actually approached to take on that debt. He said his Bank were fine with the risk but couldn’t stand Ken Bates. I’ve said a few times that they were on the brink, but he has always been pretty adamant that Bates would’ve been able to refinance (and he had the benefit of actually seeing the numbers). My friend is a Spurs fan and ST holder by the way. I think Chelsea’s level of debt compared to income back then was actually lower than ours is now.
 
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Jurgen the German said:
West Ham away 2015/16 - had a chance to win and go top and put in one of the worst performances of the season
Arsenal home 15/16 - again had a chance to win and go top and blew a 2-1 lead against 10 men, we were hanging on for a point at the end too!
Juve 17-18 - dominated both legs for large parts but lost the tie
Chelsea FA cup 16/17 - The Son at left wing back game
United FA cup 17/18 - played well for 20 mins then froze as soon as they equalised and didn’t offer any resistance in the 2nd half.
Burnley away 18/19 - we were the early game and had the chance to put pressure on the top two but we froze again and Poch lost it on the pitch after the game. I for one think that game was quite damaging to the club and we’ve not been the same since.
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So lots of conjecture there but apart from Son at Wing back, no actual breakdown of what he did wrong and what you would have done differently. This is why we are not managers and it is difficult to be so certain of an opinion when there are so many variables game to game.

Even the Son point, Davies was just coming back from injury and Rose was out injured. I have also compared our bench that day Vs Chelsea's.
They simply more options with the squad than we did. So we lost semi finals but we did also won some brilliantly. Then came up against better sides in the final. We didn't play Wigan Athletic and bottle it as the bigger club.

As for League games well you win and lose those as part of a campaign. You amplify the losses into being key games instead of accepting that at some point winning the League would be beyond us due to injuries, fatigue etc and a lack of squad depth.

Like I said being disappointed about losing games should not confused with thinking we definitely should have won those games.
 
Finney Is Back said:
They had a Euro bond that was coming up to maturity (I think it was 75m). One of my friends who works in the debt market was actually approached to take on that debt. He said his Bank were fine with the risk but couldn’t stand Ken Bates. I’ve said a few times that they were on the brink, but he has always been pretty adamant that Bates would’ve been able to refinance (and he had the benefit of actually seeing the numbers). My friend is a Spurs fan and ST holder by the way. I think Chelsea’s level of debt compared to income back then was actually lower than ours is now.
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I'm sure they could have refinanced but probably not on great terms.

They were also still putting old players on huge contracts and losing money all over the place. They were still using the Leeds/Redknapp model but had lost their fairy godmother.
 
billyiddo said:
We weren't also rans under Poch, we just prioritised the League and CL over domestic trophies because we had a thin squad. No one cares Klopp done the same with Liverpool.
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We are and have been ‘also rans’ for the life of the premier league for starters. We are a descent top half and qualifying European Premiership side. But nothing more.
 
Robspur12 said:
So lots of conjecture there but apart from Son at Wing back, no actual breakdown of what he did wrong and what you would have done differently. This is why we are not managers and it is difficult to be so certain of an opinion when there are so many variables game to game.

Even the Son point, Davies was just coming back from injury and Rose was out injured. I have also compared our bench that day Vs Chelsea's.
They simply more options with the squad than we did. So we lost semi finals but we did also won some brilliantly. Then came up against better sides in the final. We didn't play Wigan Athletic and bottle it as the bigger club.

As for League games well you win and lose those as part of a campaign. You amplify the losses into being key games instead of accepting that at some point winning the League would be beyond us due to injuries, fatigue etc and a lack of squad depth.

Like I said being disappointed about losing games should not confused with thinking we definitely should have won those games.
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With all due respect mate, short of providing a Poch bloopers reel of games from up to 5 years ago I am not sure what you are expecting exactly? No manager is infallible. I’m saying that for the majority of Poch’s tenure, we actually had a better squad IMO than Arsenal, United and Liverpool, regardless of resources. Our squad was on a par with Chelsea some years, inferior in some years and superior in others. Are you saying you would have preferred Arsenal’s overpaid squad with the likes of Özil, Wheelchair, Welbeck etc? Or United’s with Sanchez on £500k a week or Pogba who earns ridiculous wages? Our squad was largely better than Liverpool until they signed Van Dijk and Alison. I don’t think we had an inferior squad to United for example when they beat us in the fa cup semi final.
 
Baleforce said:
We actually moved ahead of all of the other clubs at various points too.
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To think that Saudi Sportswashing Machine were one Europe’s Top 5 earners less than a quarter of a century ago...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/543805.stm

1. Manchester United, England - £87.9m
2. Real Madrid, Spain - £72.2m
3. Bayern Munich, Germany - £65.2m
4. Juventus, Italy - £55.3m
5. Saudi Sportswashing Machine, England - £49.2m
6. Barcelona, Spain - £48.57m
7. AC Milan, Italy - £48.55m
8. Internazionale, Italy - £48.2m
9. Chelsea, England - £47.5m
10. Liverpool, England - £45.5m
11. Borussia Dortmund, Germany - £41.5m
12. Lazio, Italy - £41.1m
13. Arsenal, England - £40.4m
14. AC Parma, Italy - £33.4m
15. Paris Saint Germain, France - £32.9m
16. Glasgow Rangers, Scotland - £32.5m
17. Aston Villa, England - £31.8m
18. Tottenham Hotspur, England - £31.2m
19. AS Roma, Italy - $30.7m
20. Leeds United, England - £28.3m
 
StephenH said:
Still think he will go on to be an excellent manager.
Also a few of the referees need to be pensioned off!
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Think he's a great manager but may be at his level. Reminds me of players that thrive in lesser teams but struggle at the better teams.

I dont know if we have to take a gamble on a manager like him to be honest. But the fact that he is mentioned is full respect to his current achievements.
 
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