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Next Manager?

Bedfordspurs said:
I get disappointment… I’m a Spurs fan, we live for it
But to have a new guy get slated, and incorrectly before he even has joined is fudging odd to me
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Do you think it is part of us being a 'big club'? Our identity has changed. I can't imagine that when we were back at the Lane people would have the same expectations. Now it seems like the fan base has a lot more glory hunting fans. We never used to be like that. To support Spurs you had to be die-hard. There was no glory!
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I get disappointment… I’m a Spurs fan, we live for it
But to have a new guy get slated, and incorrectly before he even has joined is fudging odd to me
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Without a doubt we do, but s ome make it far worse by believing/ assuming that what they read/hear is actual fact when in all reality its just mostly hits they are after.
 
scaramanga said:
It does.

But if the very worst outcome to leaking these rumours (if that's what we did) is a tiny benefit to the club, then what's the problem?
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Why have we built a stadium to increase match day revenue? Surely we don't need the debt over our head and should have stayed at the Lane.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I actually made this point a few days ago - I was surprised someone wasn't trying to apply the positive take for the club on it that you just did. Instead a few people thought the club leveraging the media to their own ends was too much of an egregious thought to comprehend.

But problem with it though, was that the club was trying to appear more ambitious than it actually was. I think if we were able to sign Conte, it means we're pushing for the title. That's our standing in the game at that point. He joins to do that. We sign Fons, and I think we're competing for the top 4. I'm fine with that, short of ENIC selling I know that's realistic. But my problem is we are led to believe we are more ambitious, that big things are happening, that things are about to change, and actually...it wasn't. And I think with respect to ENIC, I think they benefit from being seen to be more ambitious than they actually are, not just in terms of increased engagement and revenue for the club, but in the idea among the fanbase that things are going about as well as could be expected under them, and that they really do want more for us.

And I think it's ok that as fans we can say 'that's not cool what you did there'.
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is appointing conte showing ambition though?
is appointing a manager that we can't support in the way that he wants showing ambition?
or is it a pr exercise?
you can twist it either way. not saying you're twisting it.
conte is not a good fit for us, no harm to the guy, top manager, but he isn't right guy for us.
talking to him was the correct thing to do (although we don't know which side instigated the talks), but the chances of it coming off were very slim.
and lets not forget conte is out of a job, a job he left of his own accord, because he wasn't happy at funds available. most of the top jobs are full and unlikely to be vacant soon, and which club in this financial situation is going to be looking for a manager that wants a large sum to spend?
spurs, conte and poch were all playing games for leverage.
conte is a perfect fit for psg,
poch is our main target
poch is probably 50/50 on us and psg.
psg, or more likely thier dof, weren't interested.
nothing ventured nothing gained.
 
scaramanga said:
So the worst that the club may have done (but possibly didn't) is hurt the feelings of some people who felt that way due to believing rumours in the press?

That's not even a storm in a teacup, it's a breeze in a thimble.
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I think ENIC like to create these 'oh so close' moments because it helps them look more ambitious than they actually are and keeps more fans onside (although a tide in general seems to be turning).

I think the question of how ambitious we actually are and what our standing in the game is, is a fair question if they are shaping perceptions to keep fans onside, or to drive more money out of pockets / boost renewals / stave off churn.

Please understand, it is not 'my feelings' being hurt we didn't get a manager. It is a disingenuous use of the media to appear ambitious, as opposed to the action of actually being so. If we actually got Conte, I would have been pleased not because I particularly like Conte, but because of what that says about our standing as a club, and the push we are going to make in the coming season. What investment we must have had to guarantee to bring someone like that in etc etc. I think there are a lot of times they like to appear ambitious rather than act ambitious, and if the club is consistently talk and no action I think it is fair to question that. Especially through the lens of highest ticket prices etc etc.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I think ENIC like to create these 'oh so close' moments because it helps them look more ambitious than they actually are and keeps more fans onside (although a tide in general seems to be turning).

I think the question of how ambitious we actually are and what our standing in the game is, is a fair question if they are shaping perceptions to keep fans onside, or to drive more money out of pockets / boost renewals / stave off churn.

Please understand, it is not 'my feelings' being hurt we didn't get a manager. It is a disingenuous use of the media to appear ambitious, as opposed to the action of actually being so. If we actually got Conte, I would have been pleased not because I particularly like Conte, but because of what that says about our standing as a club, and the push we are going to make in the coming season. What investment we must have had to guarantee to bring someone like that in etc etc. I think there are a lot of times they like to appear ambitious rather than act ambitious, and if the club is consistently talk and no action I think it is fair to question that. Especially through the lens of highest ticket prices etc etc.
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So the net result of their actions (that they may not have even taken) is zero?
 
Raziel said:
But there is a lot of nuance in your argument

- We were talking to Conte, he himself has confirmed that, we spent some significant time/effort in that pursuit
- I don't think even you believe the club entered into that conversation believing there was no chance of it actually happening
- Your concern if I get it right is the club either leaked or leveraged the conversation for better PR while the deal was far from done.
- I actually think Fonseca/ETH is exactly the level manager Levy described in his end of season statement. The confusion comes from people not accepting regardless of who our original target was, if certain managers suddenly became available, we had an obligation to look at them (Conte, Poch) regardless of how that seemed to go away from DNA strategy.

Like @scaramanga said, I'd be skeptical at the actually monetary impact of "appearing ambitious" over any period of time, I'd argue in this case it's been the opposite, the potential of Conte/Poch has created a backlash at a manger that potentially is a decent option.
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I'll take that as a compliment! The world is complicated, I like to see the nuance. :)

To be clear, I think we spoke to Conte. I think if Conte accepted coming in on our terms, we probably would have done it. (That would then lead to a seperate conversation around whether we should do it, because the art of good strategy is knowing what to say no to as much as what to say yes to, and if Conte was liable to blow up soon because he'd be unhappy with the constraints...but it would be a separate issue).

I think it's just funny that in that week, we have leaks that make it appear both Poch and Conte were almost at the finish line when in reality they were probably no where near. We also have other rumours flying about that 'Daniel has big plans'. And then we end up with Fons. Now, again to be clear, as I hope you can appreciate I have defended the idea of Fons because I can completely see the logic and I think it is a smart, strategic move. But to the point I just made to @scaramanga , I have a problem if the club consistently tries to appear more ambitious than it actually is, and I think that is something fair for the fanbase to question.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Do you think it is part of us being a 'big club'? Our identity has changed. I can't imagine that when we were back at the Lane people would have the same expectations. Now it seems like the fan base has a lot more glory hunting fans. We never used to be like that. To support Spurs you had to be die-hard. There was no glory!
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Honestly… no
The guys on here with stronger negative vibes around the current situation are long term fans
I just think it’s actually a lack of taking time to breathe and check the context of everything
People don’t like doing research for example (I love it) so wanna be force fed info in simple ways. And bad info travels quicker and further than good info
Again I’ll highlight something from yesterday I saw… fonseca only has a win % of 52% at Roma… that’s not good enough for us.
Pochs was about 54% skewed by some
Amazing seasons too (and a poor ish one that still got CL). I mean the gap is 2% there and Roma are a mess but the message that was shared was negative and had no context
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Well… they won trophies we as a club didn’t
And your belittling achievements whilst referencing budgets. It’s a bit hypocritical
Braga winning the cup would have been a massive achievement for them. Their not a big budget size. By comparison, Poch frost ever trophy wins have come at PSG in a financially doped side. I don’t believe Fonseca has left a side bottom of the table either (I’d have to check)

so how else do you compare managers?
Surely you have to look at how they compared with similar resources, and Fonseca has done better on that front (unless your gonna tell me their the Portuguese equivalent of Spurs)
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I’m really not sure if you’re serious.

Fonseca winning the cup with Braga puts him on a par with Poch?
As I said previously if you put fonseca’s achievements against Poch’s at the time Poch joined Spurs I would agree there is an argument to be had that they are par, however since then Poch is on a different level to the Fonz, that’s why he was our first choice, why Real Madrid wanted him and why PSG want to keep him.

Fonseca’s achievements are why Roma were happy to let him go.

look I’d love for the guy to succeed but to sell it as he is an upgrade on Poch, well that’s a stretch to far for me in any shape or form. He’s probably the best fit for our club under ENIC and let’s hope like Poch he can make us dream and let’s hope if that happens he isn’t dropped in the dogs do do by the owners like Poch was
 
Let’s flip it round slightly for those who are unhappy

say we sell £150m of players this window
And we spend £250m on players
How much have we spent?

man unhappy fan IMO would say £100m and lost some players along the way
A happy fan would say £250m and cleared out the dead wood
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I think the fact that he can work under constraints, and work to improve players rather than being a coach that expects players to take personal responsibility means he will be good for us. And he's gone deep in European competition which is more than Poch had when he joined.

I think Fons will be fine for us. We probably won't win the league, but I can see us getting a top 4 finish in at least one of his seasons if things go well. Which will be better than what we've had the last 2 years.
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Tbh I agree
The Fonz suits us to a par given the business model that ENIC have. I’m hoping he can surprise us like Poch did but I got to say it’s very unlikely, that surprising hungry young dynamic we had a few years ago just doesn’t seem to be there any more and the Fonz seems a little underwhelming to me. But this is where we are under ENIC, the fact he’s only being given a two year contract doesn’t smack of confidence from their side either but let’s see

like I said the saddest thing about our predicament under the current owners is that hope has died. maybe the Fonz can reignite it
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Let’s flip it round slightly for those who are unhappy

say we sell £150m of players this window
And we spend £250m on players
How much have we spent?

man unhappy fan IMO would say £100m and lost some players along the way
A happy fan would say £250m and cleared out the dead wood
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You can lay good money on that happening.
 
RigorMortis said:
I’m really not sure if you’re serious.

Fonseca winning the cup with Braga puts him on a par with Poch?
As I said previously if you put fonseca’s achievements against Poch’s at the time Poch joined Spurs I would agree there is an argument to be had that they are par, however since then Poch is on a different level to the Fonz, that’s why he was our first choice, why Real Madrid wanted him and why PSG want to keep him.

Fonseca’s achievements are why Roma were happy to let him go.

look I’d love for the guy to succeed but to sell it as he is an upgrade on Poch, well that’s a stretch to far for me in any shape or form. He’s probably the best fit for our club under ENIC and let’s hope like Poch he can make us dream and let’s hope if that happens he isn’t dropped in the dogs do do by the owners like Poch was
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what did Poch achieve here then?
He took a team of player and improved them
He got us to some some finals which we lost (I know, I went to them)
He got sacked after 5 years. He wasn’t instantly picked up by another club. Maybe, just maybe the other clubs think he needs to learn more first. Win some trophies and do what he did at Spurs with an end product.

and where was it said he was an upgrade on Poch. I said he has a better record than Poch. That’s a fact. He has won more trophies. He actually has won trophies in 2 countries. The one horse league people talk about where he won most of them, the side were worse before and after he left. Again that’s factual
They won it under him so he must have done something right

Roma let him go as they had new owners, a new DOF (his 3rd) and they wanted a big name coach to help launch the profile of what is widely considered to be a mess.

Fonseca was rumoured to be on Madrid’s list only a few months back https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....2/paulo-fonseca-real-madrid-coach-zidane-roma

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/cultofcalcio.com/roma-coach-paulo-fonseca-on-real-madrid-and-benfica-radar/?amp=1
 
scaramanga said:
So the net result of their actions (that they may not have even taken) is zero?
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In this and the Levy thread you make every defence of the owners through the lens of financial benefit. And yes, I agree with you that on that front, they are some of the best in the business.

But just because you can do something it doesn't mean you should. There are other lenses to view something through. The moral lens for example. It doesn't sit right with me that fans will continue to part with money and fill up waiting lists and engage with this club in the belief that they may be more ambitious than they actually are.

It also stops fans actually holding the owners more accountable, and demanding greater action. If they can get away with it by keeping fans onside with some strategic PR moves, it means they are happy and safe in their position, they are making money, and the club is on a sound footing. All the while we are still pretty much the same 'hoping for the top 4' club we've been since 2006. (Yes with a nicer stadium and training ground and better players, but relatively speaking our standing is the same).

So I am viewing this through the lens of 'do they feel they are doing everything they can to make us as successful as possible'. There's a reason people apply pressure. Poch did it to try and get the club to sign a higher quality of players. Fans can do it because regardless of what you say, thousands of people chanting 'Levy out' every week will have a weakening effect on their position. We as fans do have a greater say than you give us credit for. We can push for more of the things we want. But the more they don't feel pressure from any other stakeholder, the more they can continue to do things the way that works perfectly for them, rather than any other stakeholder.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Honestly… no
The guys on here with stronger negative vibes around the current situation are long term fans
I just think it’s actually a lack of taking time to breathe and check the context of everything
People don’t like doing research for example (I love it) so wanna be force fed info in simple ways. And bad info travels quicker and further than good info
Again I’ll highlight something from yesterday I saw… fonseca only has a win % of 52% at Roma… that’s not good enough for us.
Pochs was about 54% skewed by some
Amazing seasons too (and a poor ish one that still got CL). I mean the gap is 2% there and Roma are a mess but the message that was shared was negative and had no context
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It is not new fans, that is the interesting thing. It is older fans expectations changing. I think part of it is we've been seduced by little tastes of success. Like a dope dealer, Levy feeds us enough to get us hooked :) We have created a platform from which to aspire to greater things - that is on Levy. It is his success and his failing. As many are frustrated that we're not kicking on from that platform. But it is often 2 steps forward, one step back.

Fonseca will be welcomed, he fits the bill. Only concern I have is how quickly he learns the new league and about his players and club. But he is well travelled. So hopefully he can hit the ground running with a good team behind him at Spurs.
 
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