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Moussa Sissoko

nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Have I not given a fair critique of him? Have I not stated what he does well, what he doesnt do well, noted his improvement, offered my thoughts on how best to use him?

Or have I simply stated "He is brick" relentlessly?

I have, IMO of course, been consistent in that it is not personal, there is no agenda, and I simply say what I see.

Two years ago he was not a valuable member of the squad. Despite BoLs repetition, one year ago he was not a valuable member of the squad. Couple of odd games where he wasnt a complete liability? Maybe. But not a player of value.

This season is the best he has ever been.

Relative to his previous form, he is basically world class. Relative to the form we expect of a player? He is at best a 6/10 so far.

That is not trying to hammer him, that is observation. He has got to the stage of "doing a job" and not being a complete liability, its not like he is adding value.

You are of course free to disagree, its what keeps the world turning around here ;O) but I do resent the notion I have an agenda, and am trying to save face etc, it simply isnt true.
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He was a squad player last year and played his role. He played the majority of games and played in some big wins. These things don’t happen if we have some literal no hoper in the starting 11 - he has to be doing something:

But it’s fine- you’re not hammering him for personal reasons, you just don’t rate him. Which is fine. I just think you are being very harsh on him. Most of the team probably was a 6/10 on Saturday, but Sissoko wasn’t one of them IMO - he stood out. For good reasons.
 
Last year he might have played, and we might have got results, but that was most certainly despite and not because of him, IMO.

This year, he is doing a job. There is much he could do better, much I would like to see that he doesnt provide, but he is much less a liability and general detriment to things.

Call it harsh, but I simply expect more from our players than "not bad". His performance was a 6/10 for me, by the standard applied to all. As I already said, half the team were 6s (if not more).

If he stood out, it can only be by comparison to his previous performances, which points to the special Sissoko scale that is so vehemently denied.
 
scaramanga said:
They're the end points in the chart - it's not supposed to go anywhere from them.

The issue is where they receive the ball due to the talent vacuum in central midfield.
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Moura, as lovely a player on the ball as he can be, often makes poor decisions and has caused Kane to adapt his game to accommodate the strengths Lucas brings. One thing Sissoko offers the squad is two potential players in one. He can play as an attacking or sitting midfielder. He is a competent, strong and hard-working asset in both. Does he get in when Eriksen, Alli, Winks and Dier are all fully fit? Probably not. But he is absolutely important to the squad.

At a time when we have had an injury/fatigue crisis and the likes of Sonny in dire form, I believe Sissoko has been a major factor in us remaining in touch at the top.

Poch seems to think so. So does Dechamps.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Last year he might have played, and we might have got results, but that was most certainly despite and not because of him, IMO.

This year, he is doing a job. There is much he could do better, much I would like to see that he doesnt provide, but he is much less a liability and general detriment to things.

Call it harsh, but I simply expect more from our players than "not bad". His performance was a 6/10 for me, by the standard applied to all. As I already said, half the team were 6s (if not more).

If he stood out, it can only be by comparison to his previous performances, which points to the special Sissoko scale that is so vehemently denied.
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Ok, I think we can both agree that the margins at the top of elite football are absolutely tiny, right? Where the slightest gain, however small, is seen as a worthwhile advantage when it comes to picking up points in the highest pressure of pressure-cooker environments that is the Premier League. Would would agree with that statement?

Because if you do, if you accept that the margins are fine and that the pressure for results is immense, how can that square with the idea that we consistently played a player who was not helping us towards those points? If anything gained was in spite and not because of him, why did he keep getting selected? If he is a net-negative asset, why is he being kept around? Simply put, he had to have been offering some value to keep getting put on the pitch. This is ignoring the fact that he is clearly well liked by the squad, who recognise the value he offers around the club, but purely from a logical standpoint how do you square the idea that we gained results in spite of him with the idea that margins are tiny in elite football?

I'm never going to change your mind if you think his performance is a 6. You are a fan and you have the right to an opinion, but I do think it is harsh. I think a lot of people have the rating scale that starts as a 6, and when you drop to 5 and below it's because you are reflecting a negative performance. If the team wins and it's generally a good performance, you get a fair amount of 7s and maybe an 8 or two. If it's a performance of the season, you may get a 9. If it's a career-game, maybe a 10. I don't think it's fair to say Sissoko was pretty much average after the Palace match. He was clearly one of our stand-outs in a match we had to scrap to win, in tough conditions against a well organised side that defends deep. The players clearly thought he played 'well', Poch clearly thought he played 'well', and Deschamps has clearly thought he's been playing 'well' for at least the last month or so.
 
thfcsteff said:
Moura, as lovely a player on the ball as he can be, often makes poor decisions and has caused Kane to adapt his game to accommodate the strengths Lucas brings. One thing Sissoko offers the squad is two potential players in one. He can play as an attacking or sitting midfielder. He is a competent, strong and hard-working asset in both. Does he get in when Eriksen, Alli, Winks and Dier are all fully fit? Probably not. But he is absolutely important to the squad.
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I absolutely dispute he is in any way an attacking player. Charging up the field with the ball doesnt make a player attacking. Doing something with it when he gets there is what would make someone attacking. A shot on target, an assist, a cross, a key pass - all things even the most ardent Sissoko fan wouldnt dream of claiming he is any good at.

And Im pretty sure it is you who told me he couldnt do the sitting job just the other day! Though I disagreed with you then, I think thats what he is best suited to. I just wish thats how they would play him more.


BrainOfLevy said:
Ok, I think we can both agree that the margins at the top of elite football are absolutely tiny, right? Where the slightest gain, however small, is seen as a worthwhile advantage when it comes to picking up points in the highest pressure of pressure-cooker environments that is the Premier League. Would would agree with that statement?

Because if you do, if you accept that the margins are fine and that the pressure for results is immense, how can that square with the idea that we consistently played a player who was not helping us towards those points? If anything gained was in spite and not because of him, why did he keep getting selected? If he is a net-negative asset, why is he being kept around? Simply put, he had to have been offering some value to keep getting put on the pitch. This is ignoring the fact that he is clearly well liked by the squad, who recognise the value he offers around the club, but purely from a logical standpoint how do you square the idea that we gained results in spite of him with the idea that margins are tiny in elite football?

I'm never going to change your mind if you think his performance is a 6. You are a fan and you have the right to an opinion, but I do think it is harsh. I think a lot of people have the rating scale that starts as a 6, and when you drop to 5 and below it's because you are reflecting a negative performance. If the team wins and it's generally a good performance, you get a fair amount of 7s and maybe an 8 or two. If it's a performance of the season, you may get a 9. If it's a career-game, maybe a 10. I don't think it's fair to say Sissoko was pretty much average after the Palace match. He was clearly one of our stand-outs in a match we had to scrap to win, in tough conditions against a well organised side that defends deep. The players clearly thought he played 'well', Poch clearly thought he played 'well', and Deschamps has clearly thought he's been playing 'well' for at least the last month or so.
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You have done a fine job of convincing yourself of your infallible logic, but it is simply not something I buy into. We have done this before, Sissoko has been played almost exclusively as a least-worst option, not as a preference. As a "I suppose that will do". Not as key part in a finely tuned machine. And as such, he can be quite poor while the team does well around him. Its something that can happen for any player, and if you look around Im sure youll see plenty of examples.

And right up to this season he has been a fudging liability. Now he has stepped up to being somewhere about average, mostly by virtue of cutting out the brainfarts rather than improving his game.

It amuses me you take such offence to his being a 6. And it really just reinforces my belief you have completely brainwashed yourself on the player, and are absolutely - positively - using special criteria by which to judge him.

I dont give a fudge about how other people run their scales, I detailed mine above - read it and see if its unfair in context. Ill give you a clue, its not.

Just as youll try and paint me as having an agenda, or being irrational, or unable to back down from some perceived entrenchment - but again, its not. I have qualified all my thoughts on him, and strangely nobody has really tried to pick that apart. Ill assume because its basically fair.
 
Everybody (well nearly everybody) likes a trier!

There is an honesty and endeavour about Sissi that warms me to him and makes me forgive the rest.....well nearly;)
 
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Nayim, would you say he now warrants a place as a squad player or are you still of the opinion he isnt good enough for that? If you think he is good enough to be a squad player then I think that should be end of debate as you do argue your points fairly,albeit I think you're being overly harsh on him. When everyone is fit there would only be select games he would be starting so should be considered a squad player, but he features more because we seldom have a full squad. And that is another positive of him, he is almost always available/fit for selection.....
 
harr1984 said:
Nayim, would you say he now warrants a place as a squad player or are you still of the opinion he isnt good enough for that? If you think he is good enough to be a squad player then I think that should be end of debate as you do argue your points fairly,albeit I think you're being overly harsh on him. When everyone is fit there would only be select games he would be starting so should be considered a squad player, but he features more because we seldom have a full squad. And that is another positive of him, he is almost always available/fit for selection.....
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If I had my way Id sell him on the first of Jan.

I dont really think he is a squad player for us, in that he fits and adds value, but as a compromise. And that compromise counts for him too. We are a square hole, he is a round peg.

I think he would fit much better elsewhere, and enjoy his football much more as a result.

And I think we simply need things he does not/can not offer.

On which basis, do I think he warrants a place as a squad player? Well, no. Do I have palpatations when he is on the team sheet? Also no.

I think its a compromise that works for now, and should be rectified at the earliest opportunity.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
If I had my way Id sell him on the first of Jan.

I dont really think he is a squad player for us, in that he fits and adds value, but as a compromise. And that compromise counts for him too. We are a square hole, he is a round peg.

I think he would fit much better elsewhere, and enjoy his football much more as a result.

And I think we simply need things he does not/can not offer.

On which basis, do I think he warrants a place as a squad player? Well, no. Do I have palpatations when he is on the team sheet? Also no.

I think its a compromise that works for now, and should be rectified at the earliest opportunity.
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Fair enough mate, still think you're selling him short as to what he offers but its pointless going back and forth. I dont think Sissoko will be going anywhere for a while either way....
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I absolutely dispute he is in any way an attacking player. Charging up the field with the ball doesnt make a player attacking. Doing something with it when he gets there is what would make someone attacking. A shot on target, an assist, a cross, a key pass - all things even the most ardent Sissoko fan wouldnt dream of claiming he is any good at.

And Im pretty sure it is you who told me he couldnt do the sitting job just the other day! Though I disagreed with you then, I think thats what he is best suited to. I just wish thats how they would play him more.




You have done a fine job of convincing yourself of your infallible logic, but it is simply not something I buy into. We have done this before, Sissoko has been played almost exclusively as a least-worst option, not as a preference. As a "I suppose that will do". Not as key part in a finely tuned machine. And as such, he can be quite poor while the team does well around him. Its something that can happen for any player, and if you look around Im sure youll see plenty of examples.

And right up to this season he has been a fudging liability. Now he has stepped up to being somewhere about average, mostly by virtue of cutting out the brainfarts rather than improving his game.

It amuses me you take such offence to his being a 6. And it really just reinforces my belief you have completely brainwashed yourself on the player, and are absolutely - positively - using special criteria by which to judge him.

I dont give a fudge about how other people run their scales, I detailed mine above - read it and see if its unfair in context. Ill give you a clue, its not.

Just as youll try and paint me as having an agenda, or being irrational, or unable to back down from some perceived entrenchment - but again, its not. I have qualified all my thoughts on him, and strangely nobody has really tried to pick that apart. Ill assume because its basically fair.
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Regarding sitting midfielder comment:you are right, I did say he was hopeless there. He has, however, proven me wrong as when forced back into the role recently when Dembele was hurt, he was solid and curiously dependable.

Going forward he has been much much better. Great assist at the gypsy site, unlucky not to have another when Sonny fluffed his set-up.

Funny to see you getting so snippy about him TBH. Your denial of his improvement (writing it off as “not brainfarting” as much) is classic glass half-empty stuff to my eyes.

Tell you what. Best we leave this to the manager and allow his decision to be the judge. And Deschamps too.



Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
harr1984 said:
Fair enough mate, still think you're selling him short as to what he offers but its pointless going back and forth. I dont think Sissoko will be going anywhere for a while either way....
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I think as soon as we can find better we will, and fully expect the club to focus on CM in general as its clearly our weakest position with the most room for improvement.

Obviously how long that takes depends on sales/availability etc, so who knows. Id bet he wont be around that long though.
 
thfcsteff said:
Regarding sitting midfielder comment:you are right, I did say he was hopeless there. He has, however, proven me wrong as when forced back into the role recently when Dembele was hurt, he was solid and curiously dependable.

Going forward he has been much much better. Great assist at the gypsy site, unlucky not to have another when Sonny fluffed his set-up.

Funny to see you getting so snippy about him TBH. Your denial of his improvement (writing it off as “not brainfarting” as much) is classic glass half-empty stuff to my eyes.

Tell you what. Best we leave this to the manager and allow his decision to be the judge. And Deschamps too.
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That was a great assist, but it was more the exception than the rule. One swallow and that...

And its not being snippy, its simply defending a position Ive come under fire for.

Glass half empty? I dont think so, rather just realistic. I think there are plenty getting pretty carried away with just how much he has actually improved IMO.

When he played before he worked hard, had limited passing, made runs that amounted to little, did some good defensive work and.... regularly fudged it up. Passes off the pitch/to the oppo/shanking the ball all over the place/tackling himself... He did a basic job and then had brainfarts.

If I were to describe him now? Well basically he works hard, has limited passing, makes runs that amount to little, does some good defensive work. Spot the difference...
 
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