Moussa Sissoko

[BrainOfLevy]

Your really were, and I told you at the time. You had managed to narrow your argument to Sissoko doing some highly specialised job only you and Poch could possibly understand. It was what ifs stacked on what ifs. And so, of course, that was time to tap out and let you get on with it.

Sissoko is a poor footballer. Isnt anywhere near good enough. And has only been used because it has been a choice between £30m player who must be good for something, or pick someone out of the youth team.

It really shouldnt come as a surprise the 28 year old multi million pound asset was chosen.

Just as it shouldnt be a surprise he has been promptly dropped now that other players are fit. As predicted.

He had a shot to show us he could do more. He never came close. I fully expect him to be a forgotten man by the end of the season (injury permitting) and sold off ASAP.

It only looks like what I say is stacked with what ifs because I absolutely detest the idea of going 'my opinion is X, and X is fact' when I have no idea what Poch is thinking. But, I try to analyse, I try to provide other resources, I try to get in to some level of detail. I wrote at length, but I wasn't stretching anything. You still haven't engaged with the idea that to play an intense pressing system requires levels of concentration, nous, decision making and positioning capability that may be beyond a lot of players, and you've offered nothing to say that Sissoko doesn't have those qualities, other than to say 'he's closer to Ryan Mason'. Fact, full stop. Discussion over. I think it's entirely likely that someone like Onomah would still be here if Poch could trust him in midfield, because we already know he can do something with the ball. And maybe Mason would have been too. This isn't stretching anything, this is just posing some pretty basic questions based on the facts we can see.

We didn't need to 'pick someone out of the youth team', we could have used Onomah who has shown obvious talent with the ball. Or we could have loaned Sissoko and bought someone else cheap, because he's such a poor footballer that also offers nothing defensively apparently.

But truly, thank you for 'telling me' I was going mad. Really needed that.

 

[Raziel]

Now this is just silly, and frankly I resent it following responses to me.

Ive openly admitted to Sisoskos strengths, when he has been ok, when he has made good actions. If you want to talk about middle positions - mine is the less extreme. Ive recognised him as a package and made my feelings on his worth known.

He isnt good enough, it shows, he will be dropped when we can drop him. Its been consistent, and hardly earth shatteringly negative or extreme.

And heres the thing - when he legitimately does something brick, and it gets pointed out - there is a stampede of defenders to basically shout down and harass the person who pointed out the thing that he actually just did. The person who also will have pointed out faults/bad actions in other players as well, but those ones dont warrant the tirade in response.

If you want to see where the extremes lie, its in his fan club.

Look mate, I'm struggling here, because I don't want to argue defending Sissoko, he's a not a first 11 player for us, not good enough = we both agree, ok?

It's a repeat conversation that goes nowhere, I make the same comment when people talk about Lloris kicking, Lamela's one foot (this brick isn't even a debate, its a fact). Sissoko is an athlete that technically has gaps, and it shows up badly in a team full of generally very good technical players. None of that affects our game/performances in any relevant way.

I go back to the Rochdale game, Sissoko had a very typical game for him, it actually looked a little better than normal because the rest of the team played so much brick. Yet, a significant portion of the post game thread is centered around him? why? do we want to discuss his first touch again?

And not sure you are serious re fan club, I don't know one person on this board who believes the guy is worth a match day squad place when we are fully fit. But to borrow a phrase that was once used to describe Lamela on this board - I get not liking the guy, not thinking he's good enough, but we don't need to try and make him out to be some kind of satanic donkey.

 

[Nifel]

It is pretty obvious. Onomah went out on loan, because we had Dier, Wanyama, Winks ahead of him in central midfield. And Alli and Sissoko could cover from their AM positions if need be. Onomah needs game time, which he would not normally get at Spurs, but at Aston Villa. No brainer to send him out on loan. One could argue with a recall. With people returning from injuries, this doesn't make sense either.

Better to try to get 30M worth out of Sissoko and hope there will be buyers in the next window. There hasn't been any the last 2, which frankly makes perfect sense. He is on good money at spurs and doesn't have any x-factor.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It only looks like what I say is stacked with what ifs because I absolutely detest the idea of going 'my opinion is X, and X is fact' when I have no idea what Poch is thinking. But, I try to analyse, I try to provide other resources, I try to get in to some level of detail. I wrote at length, but I wasn't stretching anything. You still haven't engaged with the idea that to play an intense pressing system requires levels of concentration, nous, decision making and positioning capability that may be beyond a lot of players, and you've offered nothing to say that Sissoko doesn't have those qualities, other than to say 'he's closer to Ryan Mason'. Fact, full stop. Discussion over. I think it's entirely likely that someone like Onomah would still be here if Poch could trust him in midfield, because we already know he can do something with the ball. And maybe Mason would have been too. This isn't stretching anything, this is just posing some pretty basic questions based on the facts we can see.

We didn't need to 'pick someone out of the youth team', we could have used Onomah who has shown obvious talent with the ball. Or we could have loaned Sissoko and bought someone else cheap, because he's such a poor footballer that also offers nothing defensively apparently.

But truly, thank you for 'telling me' I was going mad. Really needed that.

Onomah who has also proven he isnt at the level yet? Or a punt on someone cheap? Or try and make something out of the player you spent a bucket load on who has been a complete flop so far?

Thats the decision. It is possible to take Sissoko as the least worst option, and for that to not be an implicit endorsement of some hidden abilities.

You keep going on about his defensive game. Ive noted it, enough that its getting boring. Ive even pointed to where I think it works and doesnt.

I think simply as a shield, as someone sitting in front of our back line and chasing everything down, he is quite competent. I dont think that is indicative of him being at the sharp end of our stategies and tactics. I think, actually, thats about as basic a job as there is to do on the field.

Again, its possible he is doing something with competence without it being that he has some deeper qualities on display.

I think, when he starts playing as more a box to box midfielder, his limitations become ever more apparent.

Thats not to say he doesnt have good moments in him, simply that on balance - the more I see the more sure I am he simply isnt good enough for this team and never will be.


I told you you were mad to try and get you to stop and look, take a breath. Before backing yourself even further into that corner. Take it leave it, I really dont care - I just found it baffling the route you were taking this and wanted to give you a nudge to look at at. Particularly as you are clearly a poster I find very like minded to myself on many subjects, particularly similar ones to this. That was it, take it as you will.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Look mate, I'm struggling here, because I don't want to argue defending Sissoko, he's a not a first 11 player for us, not good enough = we both agree, ok?

It's a repeat conversation that goes nowhere, I make the same comment when people talk about Lloris kicking, Lamela's one foot (this brick isn't even a debate, its a fact). Sissoko is an athlete that technically has gaps, and it shows up badly in a team full of generally very good technical players. None of that affects our game/performances in any relevant way.

I go back to the Rochdale game, Sissoko had a very typical game for him, it actually looked a little better than normal because the rest of the team played so much brick. Yet, a significant portion of the post game thread is centered around him? why? do we want to discuss his first touch again?

And not sure you are serious re fan club, I don't know one person on this board who believes the guy is worth a match day squad place when we are fully fit. But to borrow a phrase that was once used to describe Lamela on this board - I get not liking the guy, not thinking he's good enough, but we don't need to try and make him out to be some kind of satanic donkey.

Lloris' kicking is pretty bad though...


Take a look at that match thread again, when I read it I saw Llorente, Son, Winks, Wanyama... All getting criticised. As well as Sissoko, yes, who I thought was poor. The whole team was, and the whole team was pulled apart - but the comments on Sissoko drew the crowd with the pitch forks railing against anyone who dared say such things...

Believe me, I can appreciate people being sick of the conversation. But, when someone is bad, it is ok to point it out.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I've actually just gone back in to the Rochdale thread as I'd left it for basically this week. Some genuinely interesting discussion about fault for the goal, and people with coaching experience debating on what the right moves should have been. Love all that.

But...was Sissoko really 'shown up' by Rochdale's young players in any conceivable way? And how was he? My goodness if I had seen this earlier in the week I would have been well on that! Of course people will pick up on it, it's just nonsense. I don't think he gave the ball away in a dangerous area once (he never does), he assisted, and generally speaking he was one of our better players. Why was he 'poor' exactly? How was he 'shown up?' Genuine question. Fair enough, you aren't purely picking him out, but you seem to be judging him by some pretty harsh criteria none the less.

 

[Bullet]

‘Sissoko is a poor footballer’, full stop, end of discussion.

Agreed

Sissoko is a 6 out of 10 player overall i.e. he can fill holes like an 8/10 and he can mess up flowing moves like a 4/10 player, but I don't need 184 pages of verbose discussion to know this. Those annoyed are viewing the 4/10 and those in his defence are viewing the 8/10 and squabbling for 100 pages.

Hopefully we have better players fit and can forget him like Gilberto or Tramezzani.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I've actually just gone back in to the Rochdale thread as I'd left it for basically this week. Some genuinely interesting discussion about fault for the goal, and people with coaching experience debating on what the right moves should have been. Love all that.

But...was Sissoko really 'shown up' by Rochdale's young players in any conceivable way? And how was he? My goodness if I had seen this earlier in the week I would have been well on that! Of course people will pick up on it, it's just nonsense. I don't think he gave the ball away in a dangerous area once (he never does), he assisted, and generally speaking he was one of our better players. Why was he 'poor' exactly? How was he 'shown up?' Genuine question. Fair enough, you aren't purely picking him out, but you seem to be judging him by some pretty harsh criteria none the less.

In the first 5 minutes alone he played Trippier into trouble 3 times by punting the ball at him instead of passing it to him, and his poor control led him to chasing the ball through midfield (as he is comically liable to do). It set the tone for much of his performance.

Those Rochdale midfielders, at 22/21 looked a cut above. Better touch and technique, better movement, more intelligent in their game. They played around him with ease, and knew the slightest pressure on him led to another punted ball which meant another player taking touches to control/recover it.

Sissoko was, I thought, pretty poor throughout. His passing was consistently bad on the day, he continued as he did early on just punting the ball at people and caused issues with it. His movement wasnt great, with him just chasing the ball to no real avail. In particular I thought he really lacked composure, he needed to slow down and play well/smart instead of getting flustered.

The assist was good, and I knew when he made it it was going to be the big justification for why he wasnt poor. The pass selection itself wasnt a great moment for him. That channel opened up as his only real avenue to use, if he didnt play that pass it would have been a shocker it was so obvious. However, he executed it perfectly, weighted it really well - which was a very pleasant surprise considering he was having a poor game in that very particular regard.

I thought he was poor, I dont think its an unfair assessment. I thought Son and Llorente in particular were worse, and I dont think anyone really covered themselves in glory (bar maybe Moura who was very bright).

And here is the catch, I judge them all by the same criteria. Despite your prejudice in this argument, I dont hold Sissoko to special standards. Which is something many a defender can actually be accused off, with the classic "You cant expect that of him..." (you know, basic football competence ) response.

You are picking up on a post I made about the game as a whole, where I picked out several players, which was a balanced post. It wasnt a "lets pick out Sissoko to bash him" post, it was my thoughts on the game. And your response? To the Sissoko line (ignoring the rest) "My goodness if I had seen this earlier in the week I would have been well on that!".

You see what Ive been saying? Practically rabid at the mere mention of something negative about him. Ignoring the rest. When I didnt even say anything that extreme or unwarranted.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Mate, your last point is picking up on a quote where I’m obviously being quite facetious...and anyway, I think your whole post is judging him by frankly way too harsh criteria. I genuinely don’t recall him playing Trippier intro trouble in the first 5 mins or chasing the ball around midfield all day because of poor touch. To me it’s seeing something that isn’t there but you are of course welcome to your opinion.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

I cannot help but think that some posters sit down in front of the TV or computer screen, with pen and paper in hand - ready to jot down every single misplaced pass Sissoko makes... simply to justify their spacegoating of him.

Having said that he clearly splits opinions apparently even in France: https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...ps-hails-soldier-moussa-sissoko-a3772566.html



“Aside from that, if you are going to ask him to do what Kylian Mbappé or Kingsley Coman does, he is a completely different player.”

“I like him, he is not my teacher’s pet, but I would say that Moussa is the prototype of a soldier.... He does not complain, whether he plays 2 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes or starts the match."

 

[El Guepardo]

I wouldn’t complain if I was being paid lots of money for something which I wasn’t very good at.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I cannot help but think that some posters sit down in front of the TV or computer screen, with pen and paper in hand - ready to jot down every single misplaced pass Sissoko makes... simply to justify their spacegoating of him.

Having said that he clearly splits opinions apparently even in France: https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...ps-hails-soldier-moussa-sissoko-a3772566.html



“Aside from that, if you are going to ask him to do what Kylian Mbappé or Kingsley Coman does, he is a completely different player.”

“I like him, he is not my teacher’s pet, but I would say that Moussa is the prototype of a soldier.... He does not complain, whether he plays 2 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes or starts the match."

Haha...you actually miss the quote where DD says he is well liked by his team mates. That can’t be....I thought Sissoko’s team mates always pass the ball around him because they don’t trust him, what with his terrible touch and punting the ball in their direction and all.

It’s funny, some players are just destined to get it from fans. I think it comes from a misalignment of expectations of what’s possible. Sissoko came as a poor attacking midfielder and that is how he is forever known. Onomah is getting the exact same treatment from Villa fans now. Literally many people saying he is the worst footballer they have ever seen, that he is lazy, some quite harsh stuff directed at them. He is their scape goat. And only filling the original expectations, of Onomah being this attacking midfield Dele Alli type player are going to alter that, anything else he does, any good is going to be looked at through the lens of what he isn’t doing. And I think it’s the same for Sissoko. If he suddenly turned into Sadie Mane in our shirt, because that’s what was expected when he signed, everyone would say he’s great. If he does anything else good, it’s ignored or looked at through a harsher lens because it isn’t what he is supposedly supposed to be.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Utter nonsense.

What on earth is "a misalignment of expectations of what’s possible" if not "lower your expectations because he isnt capable of delivering...anything"?

I dont judge him as an attacking player at all, I dont see anyone here that does.

People dont rate him because he isnt very good, not because of any other reason. No bias, no mis alignment of expectations, no agenda - simply they see he isnt up to it.

Any misalignment is on the other side of the debate.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Utter nonsense.

What on earth is "a misalignment of expectations of what’s possible" if not "lower your expectations because he isnt capable of delivering...anything"?

I dont judge him as an attacking player at all, I dont see anyone here that does.

People dont rate him because he isnt very good, not because of any other reason. No bias, no mis alignment of expectations, no agenda - simply they see he isnt up to it.

Any misalignment is on the other side of the debate.

Because I think people judge him based on a few really bad games at the start of his tenure and have looked at him through an overly negative lens ever since. We’re just going round in circles though, I believe he’s delivering something, you don’t.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

And to develop my point, if he was bought for between 10-15 mil as a squad player for central midfield rather than a record signing in an attacking spot, and played the exact same way this season, I’d be pretty sure he’d get a lot less hatred. The fact that he causes such a stir and is looked upon SO negatively 18 months after joining (and well over a year on from his truly bad run of games with us) is because of the profile and expectations that had been set for him when he came in. Even though they are actually irrelevant to objectively assessing his performances this season.

 

[spasm]

managed divergence...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Because I think people judge him based on a few really bad games at the start of his tenure and have looked at him through an overly negative lens ever since. We’re just going round in circles though, I believe he’s delivering something, you don’t.

Which is also utter nonsense.

He had a full season of awful. And to further the point, I dont even judge him now based upon that.

We just bought Lucas Moura and the first thing I said was to not expect anything of him until next season. Just as, under the same premise, Ive been supportive of Aurier.

Its flimflam, frankly, to assume people judge him on last season. People point out, rightly, he was fudging awful last year - and not much better this. Its a statement of fact, not bias.

You believe he is delivering something? At best, mediocrity. At worst, youve completely deluded yourself.

And to develop my point, if he was bought for between 10-15 mil as a squad player for central midfield rather than a record signing in an attacking spot, and played the exact same way this season, I’d be pretty sure he’d get a lot less hatred. The fact that he causes such a stir and is looked upon SO negatively 18 months after joining (and well over a year on from his truly bad run of games with us) is because of the profile and expectations that had been set for him when he came in. Even though they are actually irrelevant to objectively assessing his performances this season.

Which, again, is utter nonsense. 3 for 3. His price doesnt dictate his value. He is a poor footballer. Id say the same if we got him on a free.

Not good enough. Dropped ASAP. Hopefully sold soon. No matter what his status on being bought. The only thing that might temper that view is if he were 19 and had time to still improve. He's not. He's 28, has never been that good and has shown no sign of improving to a decent level since he has been here. That he cost £30m just rubs salt in the wound, it doesnt inform the actual assessment.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It’s quite hard to be ‘awful’ for the whole of last season when he almost literally didn’t play for the second half of it. When he did play he got 10 minutes or so off the bench - assisting in the games vs Burnley and Swansea, playing well in the win against Hull, playing well at RWB in the game away at Leceister. Not to mention starting the game against Emirates Marketing Project at home where we dealt Pep his first loss - we wouldn’t have bullied them so much if we had a passenger on the team. He had a really bad first few games, mainly the CL ones, where he was awful. But after that, he wasn’t as bad.

 

[harr1984]

It’s quite hard to be ‘awful’ for the whole of last season when he almost literally didn’t play for the second half of it. When he did play he got 10 minutes or so off the bench - assisting in the games vs Burnley and Swansea, playing well in the win against Hull, playing well at RWB in the game away at Leceister. Not to mention starting the game against Emirates Marketing Project at home where we dealt Pep his first loss - we wouldn’t have bullied them so much if we had a passenger on the team. He had a really bad first few games, mainly the CL ones, where he was awful. But after that, he wasn’t as bad.

Seriously mate, I don’t know why you waste your time still trying to engage. There are those saying he is simply awful no matter how he actually plays and they will continue to do so - it’s boring, and just pointless even trying to engage in a debate on the subject....

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Seriously mate, I don’t know why you waste your time still trying to engage. There are those saying he is simply awful no matter how he actually plays and they will continue to do so - it’s boring, and just pointless even trying to engage in a debate on the subject....

Especially when you can be sure that several of those usual suspects will be on to excuse the performance of Aurier, the depths of which were never - ever - reached by Sissoko, even in his first year...