Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[SUIYHA]

It's not as simple as just saying that players are out of "form". Form affects us all, yes. But there's something deeper going on here. Players aren't doing the things they used to do. Our whole build-up seems slower. Players are taking more time on the ball. We are resorting to passing it in front of the opposition box and eventually taking long range pot shots. It's reminiscent of that awful AVB era, the part where we didn't have Bale.

Maybe it's down to players getting comfortable after signing new contracts. Maybe there's something going on in the dressing room. Maybe it's going to be as simple as a moment where Harry Kane comes off the bench and galvanizes the team back into form. None of us common fans know, but something is definitely wrong with the players right now.

Poch managed to clear out Adebayor, Kaboul, Capoue, Lennon and the other bad eggs that were upsetting the balance in the dressing room the first time he ran into trouble here, and he managed to turn things around quite quickly. But he has only had a rut as long and prolonged as this once before in his career, it ended up with him being sacked from Espanyol when he couldn't stop it.

Do wonder how many people that were proclaiming they wanted Poch to be here for 20 years in the summer, or that they wouldn't take second place if offered it now after the City game, might want to acknowledge they were being macarons now.

My thoughts at the start of November. Nothing has changed, other than Kane coming back has made a little difference but not a huge amount.

Something is going on in that dressing room. Alli, Dembele, Eriksen, Trippier, Wimmer and Dier are unrecognisable from what they were last season.

If we lose our unbeaten league record on the weekend (highly likely IMO) then Poch is going to have a major fan meltdown to deal with. And as I said last time, the only other time he's found himself in a rut like this it ended up with him being sacked from Espanyol...

 

[glorygloryeze]

My thoughts at the start of November. Nothing has changed, other than Kane coming back has made a little difference but not a huge amount.

Something is going on in that dressing room. Alli, Dembele, Eriksen, Trippier, Wimmer and Dier are unrecognisable from what they were last season.

If we lose our unbeaten league record on the weekend (highly likely IMO) then Poch is going to have a major fan meltdown to deal with. And as I said last time, the only other time he's found himself in a rut like this it ended up with him being sacked from Espanyol...

I hear what you're saying and feel something isn't right somewhere...but when he was sacked from Espanyol, was his team just dumped out of the CL and in the top 6 of La Liga?

 

[billyiddo]

fudging hell, why does everything have to be the beginning of the end?

 

[StephenH]

My thoughts at the start of November. Nothing has changed, other than Kane coming back has made a little difference but not a huge amount.

Something is going on in that dressing room. Alli, Dembele, Eriksen, Trippier, Wimmer and Dier are unrecognisable from what they were last season.

If we lose our unbeaten league record on the weekend (highly likely IMO) then Poch is going to have a major fan meltdown to deal with. And as I said last time, the only other time he's found himself in a rut like this it ended up with him being sacked from Espanyol...

As I said weeks ago. What is different?
Wanyama..........and how much over the top did we 'pay him' to come to us?

I dont think Levy will sack him now though. May/should take transfers away from him IMHO.

 

[Mulletperm]

As I said weeks ago. What is different?
Wanyama..........and how much over the top did we 'pay him' to come to us?

I dont think Levy will sack him now though. May/should take transfers away from him IMHO.

Yep I'm starting to wonder if the closeness of the group has been affected by Wanyama replacing Dier in midfield.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Yep I'm starting to wonder if the closeness of the group has been affected by Wanyama replacing Dier in midfield.

Well it shouldn't because Dier has mostly played alongside Wanyama when Dembele was out and quite frankly Dier has mostly been well below his level from last season and can have ZERO excuses about Wanyama playing

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

Dier has even said in an interview that his level of performances have not been the same as last year.

 

[ringo]

Well it shouldn't because Dier has mostly played alongside Wanyama when Dembele was out and quite frankly Dier has mostly been well below his level from last season and can have ZERO excuses about Wanyama playing

I think Dier's sub-par performance may well be partly because:

Having been asked to play DM last season, and stepped up to do the job - and been praised widely by other football commentators, and been picked for England on the strength of that, he suddenly finds himself second choice to Wanyama (!) in that position, and playing CB, when we already have another CB in Wimmer (who did a good job last season when asked to deputise).

and then he has been used as a utlity player who can play DM/CB/full back as required depending on Poch's whim of the moment and/or injuries. He will probably get a run out up front next.

That in itself would be enough to demotivate a lot of players.

Plus Dier is popular in the changing room, so his demotion has probably affected others.

If we managed to finish top four last season -with DMs Dembele/Dier/and another did we really need Wanyama? And did we need him at the expense of Dier?

I think Poch errs on the side of industry over creativity. And I question his judgment in this regard - he would have bought Schneiderlin, who can't get into a struggling Man U side. He bought Wanyama.
But I don't want Spurs to be a remake of Poch's Southampton, a team that wasn't that great under Poch. I want it to be better version of Spurs.

[Edited to remove superfluous "a"s]

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think Dier's sub-par performance may well be partly because:

Having been asked to play DM last season, and stepped up to do the job - and been praised widely by other football commentators, and been picked for England on the strength of that, he suddenly finds himself second choice to Wanayama (!) in that posiiton, and playing CB, when we already have another CB in Wimmer (who did a good job last season when asked to deputise).

and then he has been used as a utlity player who can play DM/CB/full back as required depending on Poch's whim of the moment and/or injuries. He will probably get a run out up front next.

That in itself would be enough to demotivate a lot of players.

Plus Dier is popular in the changing room, so his demotion has probably affected others.

If we managed to finish top four last season -with DMs Dembele/Dier/and another did we really need Wanayama? And did we need him at the expense of Dier?

I think Poch errs on the side of industry over creativity. And I question his judgment in this regard - he would have bought Schneiderlin, who can't get into a struggling Man U side. He bought Wanayama.
But I don't want Spurs to be remake of Poch's Southampton, a team that wasn't that great under Poch. I want it to be better version of Spurs.

Erm, what demotion has happened for Dier?
When he's been fit and available he has played. Remember at the beginning of the season it was him and Wanyama together. In fact he was played AHEAD of Wanyama in the first Monaco game and IIRC he was similarly poor as he was yesterday but in his more 'favoured' position as the deep-lying/Defensive midfield. In fact, i think if Wanyama had played there we may have been more solid and less susciptible to their counters in that first game: we have been playing catch-up ever since.
Anyway, it was his flexibility that has got him his rave reviews and got Poch to work on him to get him to the level he was so he can't be in a huff at all.
So again that reason doesn't wash with me.

I do think you raise a fair point re Poch priortising industry over creativity and that is certainly my main worry..

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I worry that we were well drilled in a 4-2-3-1 and everyone knew what they needed to do to make that system work, and while I praised Poch for his flexibility, it seems like changing systems has maybe affected us and now the players are less sure of what to do. We were not good against West Ham and we were utterly terrible last night. I think the players are still with him, without question, but something is not clicking. We couldn't string two passes together last night.

I'm not sure how we recover what we had, but I also think maybe our 4-2-3-1 was found out slightly and we needed to change. We've got the personal for our own 3-4-3 if needed and maybe that is the answer...but something is not right at the moment.

With that said, I don't think we need to worry about Bielsa syndrome. We're still undefeated. Poch is flexible and adaptable. I think we have another few years yet before the players give up...these are the methods that lead them to a title challenge only a few months ago.

 

[StephenH]

Well it shouldn't because Dier has mostly played alongside Wanyama when Dembele was out and quite frankly Dier has mostly been well below his level from last season and can have ZERO excuses about Wanyama playing

It may well be a case of 'teachers pet' also on loadsa money...............Eric is a popular member of class! remember.
It would also explain why there were so many contract renewals all of a sudden.

 

[ringo]

Erm, what demotion has happened for Dier?
When he's been fit and available he has played. Remember at the beginning of the season it was him and Wanyama together. In fact he was played AHEAD of Wanyama in the first Monaco game and IIRC he was similarly poor as he was yesterday but in his more 'favoured' position as the deep-lying/Defensive midfield. In fact, i think if Wanyama had played there we may have been more solid and less susciptible to their counters in that first game: we have been playing catch-up ever since.
Anyway, it was his flexibility that has got him his rave reviews and got Poch to work on him to get him to the level he was so he can't be in a huff at all.
So again that reason doesn't wash with me.

I do think you raise a fair point re Poch priortising industry over creativity and that is certainly my main worry..

I would argue that from Dier's perspective playing Wanyama in Dier's old DM position, while asking Dier to play CB when we have a CB deputy in Wimmer, may well seem like you are second choice for the DM spot.
And i think, as far as Poch is concerned, Dier is second choice for the DM spot. and personally I prefer Dier there next to Dembele. Last year when everyone was fit, we had a really good balance in the side. I think Wanyama - and don't get me wrong, he is decent player - upsets that ba;ance in favour of a more cautious/defensive approach.

As for Dier's form. i think it is only fair to judge that once he has played in the DM role consistently -alongside Dembele - or a slightly more creative forward thinking midfielder, but not Wanyama, when ti means him adopting a different role.


this is in the 4-2-3-1 line up -and separate to any discussion about who plays where in a different formation.

 

[StephenH]

I think Dier's sub-par performance may well be partly because:

Having been asked to play DM last season, and stepped up to do the job - and been praised widely by other football commentators, and been picked for England on the strength of that, he suddenly finds himself second choice to Wanyama (!) in that position, and playing CB, when we already have another CB in Wimmer (who did a good job last season when asked to deputise).

and then he has been used as a utlity player who can play DM/CB/full back as required depending on Poch's whim of the moment and/or injuries. He will probably get a run out up front next.

That in itself would be enough to demotivate a lot of players.

Plus Dier is popular in the changing room, so his demotion has probably affected others.

If we managed to finish top four last season -with DMs Dembele/Dier/and another did we really need Wanyama? And did we need him at the expense of Dier?

I think Poch errs on the side of industry over creativity. And I question his judgment in this regard - he would have bought Schneiderlin, who can't get into a struggling Man U side. He bought Wanyama.
But I don't want Spurs to be a remake of Poch's Southampton, a team that wasn't that great under Poch. I want it to be better version of Spurs.

[Edited to remove superfluous "a"s]

Spot on.

 

[glasgowspur]

I think Dier's sub-par performance may well be partly because:

Having been asked to play DM last season, and stepped up to do the job - and been praised widely by other football commentators, and been picked for England on the strength of that, he suddenly finds himself second choice to Wanyama (!) in that position, and playing CB, when we already have another CB in Wimmer (who did a good job last season when asked to deputise).

and then he has been used as a utlity player who can play DM/CB/full back as required depending on Poch's whim of the moment and/or injuries. He will probably get a run out up front next.

That in itself would be enough to demotivate a lot of players.

Plus Dier is popular in the changing room, so his demotion has probably affected others.

If we managed to finish top four last season -with DMs Dembele/Dier/and another did we really need Wanyama? And did we need him at the expense of Dier?

I think Poch errs on the side of industry over creativity. And I question his judgment in this regard - he would have bought Schneiderlin, who can't get into a struggling Man U side. He bought Wanyama.
But I don't want Spurs to be a remake of Poch's Southampton, a team that wasn't that great under Poch. I want it to be better version of Spurs.

[Edited to remove superfluous "a"s]

Well if Dier or anyone else is going to go all precious and think he's to good to fight for his spot, or that they have reached as far as they want to go then they can fudge right off.

Don't think that is the case mind you.

 

[Modric THFC]

As far as I'm concerned this is the worst defeat in Poch's 3 seasons.
Why? because it's plain to see Poch fudged up tactically, making the exact same mistake that put West Ham a goal up last game.

I really thought Poch was better than that.
I thought he would learn from playing a silly narrow formation against West Ham. I mean he changed back to our normal 4231 in the middle of the game.
But against Monaco he comes out with another narrow formation. Rose and Tripper were destroyed 1 v 2 down the flanks for the entire 90 minutes and Poch did nothing. The tactical change he did make was from one narrow formation to another.

For someone who was fully on board the Poch bandwagon this is shocking.

I mean I recognised he had deficiencies as a manager. The weird way he would throw away later rounds of competition with second strings after spending months playing first team players in the same competition. Then those players being exhausted at the end of the season.
But he usually had his tactics right.

Surely he has to recognise the reason the 4231 was coming unstuck before the Arsenal game was because of the absence of Kane and Alderweireld.
Now Kane's back and being wasted in a narrow formation. He had support last. He has no support for nearly the entire West Ham game.
Our full backs probably aren't even aware he's back in the team. Thats how little they have been able to provide for him.

Our whole game was built on pressing yet we are now playing a formation that isn't suited to pressing. You cant press the opposition back four when you have a narrow formation. They can just play it around you easily as you don't occupy the width of the pitch.

I'm at a complete loss to work out what is going on with Poch.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

emmmmmmmmmmm

Could it not just be that a team of young players is going through a bit of a bad patch?

A bad patch which currently has them unbeaten in the league and 4 points off top (about to play the team who are in fact top),






























No??

 

[90291Spur]

emmmmmmmmmmm

Could it not just be that a team of young players is going through a bit of a bad patch?

A bad patch which currently has them unbeaten in the league and 4 points off top (about to play the team who are in fact top),






























No??

What's the point in such a sensible opinion?!
Without this being the beginning of the end of Poch or Wanyama destroying our esprit de corp, or Walker being part of the Gooder Illuminati on a mission to destroy the club or Dele having changed his name so that the numerology is broken or the Wembley Curse™ it's all rather dull.

 

[demotw]

rather get the bad patch out of the way still undefeated in the league and close to the top then this happen at the business end. We are missing key players, Toby and Kane has been mentioned but for me, we are missing the energy of Lamela and his high pressing. On top of that energy he is a goal threat and creative for others, we haven't looked the same without him and I think is a bigger miss then even Kane to be honest, to our system at least.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think Dier's sub-par performance may well be partly because:

Having been asked to play DM last season, and stepped up to do the job - and been praised widely by other football commentators, and been picked for England on the strength of that, he suddenly finds himself second choice to Wanyama (!) in that position, and playing CB, when we already have another CB in Wimmer (who did a good job last season when asked to deputise).

and then he has been used as a utlity player who can play DM/CB/full back as required depending on Poch's whim of the moment and/or injuries. He will probably get a run out up front next.

That in itself would be enough to demotivate a lot of players.

Plus Dier is popular in the changing room, so his demotion has probably affected others.

If we managed to finish top four last season -with DMs Dembele/Dier/and another did we really need Wanyama? And did we need him at the expense of Dier?

I think Poch errs on the side of industry over creativity. And I question his judgment in this regard - he would have bought Schneiderlin, who can't get into a struggling Man U side. He bought Wanyama.
But I don't want Spurs to be a remake of Poch's Southampton, a team that wasn't that great under Poch. I want it to be better version of Spurs.

[Edited to remove superfluous "a"s]

I don't think it is as simple as that.

IMO Wanyama is playing instead of Dier because he is better than Dier (he has been this season at least). I personally think that Pochettino has actually been too loyal to Dier this season, as his performances have been at a level that should've seen him dropped. For example I doubt that Carter-Vickers would've looked as poor as Dier did last night.

The reason that Dier slotted into defence alongside Vertonghen instead of Wimmer playing is simply the system that Pochettino deploys. Our centre halves play a role that is 60% central defender and 40% traditional full back. Pochettino therefore plays a right sided CH who is comfortable at right back and a left sided CH who is comfortable at left back. Had it been Vertonghen who was injured I think we would've seen Wimmer coming into the team alongside Toby instead of it being Dier.

I think our lower quality this season has been the result of a number of things.... Kane being injured, Alderweireld being injured, Lamela being injured, Dembele being suspended/injured, Ali having a little drop in performance (quite normal for one in only his second season in the PL) Eriksen having a loss of form, Sissoko and Janssen not being up to speed with the way that we like to play (or perhaps just not good enough? - time will tell on that one). Last season we were able to play a very settled side for a large part of the season. This was especially so through the spine of the team... The team trusted the formation, trusted the tactics and trusted their teammates. We have lost that same trust this season as we have been disrupted partly by injuries and partly by tinkering from Pochettino to try to manage us through a busy period of games. Our injuries have also meant that by and large this season we have had a very weak bench. Against Leicester I think it was I sat there in my seat in the East Upper and thought 'how can we change this to push for the win' and the reality was that we simply didn't have the players on the bench to allow us to do this.

My own thoughts are that we simply have to get through the first half of the season there or thereabouts.... Eke out results and stay in touch. Hopefully in the latter half of the season we will then be luckier with our injuries and can field a settled team with a maximum of one change ever being required. Our bench will also be much stronger, containing players who would be expected to change the game and also some of our summer signings who by that time would be more used to our style or play, our required fitness levels and their own teammates.

 

[ringo]

To just to clarify, I'm not suggesting Dier is sulking or not pulling his weight. I just believe that not slotting back into the role he was so successful in last season may have unsettled him. And that having spent a season adjusting his game to playing a specialist role in DM to good effect, Poch is asking a lot of him to slot back into the CB position, and then try an forge defensive partnership with the other CB without a consistent pairing there.

When Toby is back it will be interesting to see what happens re formation and personnel. If we go three at the back presumably Dier will play right sided CB - although it may well ake the best part of a season for them to comfortable with that system. If they go 4-2-3-1 though, and Dembele is fit, I suspect Dier will end up on the bench.