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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

billyiddo said:
Probably sick and tired of the media purposely misconstruing what he says regarding the cup and using it to form a narrative which our more easily led supporters are happy to hold against him
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https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...les-elephant-in-room-reasons-leaving#comments

Thought this was interesting comment BTL:

Amy Lawrence beat around the bush taking out a thousand meanings but ignoring the real elephant in the room from the following statement:

"But I believe this club is respected all over the world, much more than in England"

Much more than in England? What does that mean?

It's clear that the English media's treatment of Wenger has been appalling.

As a young Arsenal fan, I recall from 2007 I started hearing from the pundits and journalists that "Arsenal haven't won anything for past 3 years". This cacophony of "Arsenal haven't won anything since xx years, snigger snigger" kept on rising until 2013-14 when Wenger won the FA cup, after which it became "Arsenal haven't won anything IMPORTANT since past xx years". But no journalists talked about another elephant in the room until many years later.. that Wenger's hands were tied because of the stadium debt and the footballing landscape had shifted because of the abnormal spending of oligarch and state owned clubs, and Wenger was actually doing a remarkable job of keeping Arsenal in the top 4 with an young inexperienced team despite having a lesser net spend then Liverpool, Tottenham and even Sunderland as I recall (strangely something Pocchetinno is being, rightly in my opinion, lauded for now!).

I initially thought that "not winning anything in past xx years" is a very abnormal thing to do.
But as years rolled by, I realised that there is another elephant in the room.. That Liverpool, Tottenham etc have also not won ANYTHING or ANYTHING IMPORTANT for past xx years. But they never faced same amount of ridicule as poor Wenger. This didn't change even when that Wenger's Arsenal won 3 FA cups in past 4 years when the financial restrictions were lifted a bit (albeit Arsenal still not being able to compete financially with the likes of Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea and Man Utd) and in the process he became the manager who has one the most number of FA cup, the oldest football competition in the world.

Funnily, Amy's colleague Jonathan Wilson argued in an article on Sunday that "Pochettino’s success at Tottenham cannot be judged on trophies alone"...

After almost a decade of biased, untruthful and conflicting reporting, many Arsenal "fans" started to believe that they deserve something more than a mere "3 FA cups in 4 years". (If you think media cannot mind-wash a people, just look at the US election and Brexit!). And now the same media portrays those clueless Arsenal fans as being shallow, entitled and disrespectful of Wenger.

So Ms. Lawrence, if you want to talk about elephant(s) in the room(s), why not start with journalistic integrity in the English football press? Well I guess I can understand why.. you're smart enough to know that there is no point in chasing an illusion.
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It's undoubtedly stressful being our manager, and probably easy for things to pile up and get on top of you. I'd say right about now, our manager needs our support more than ever.
 
With all the financial constraints on us, does anyone on here realistically think we are going to win the PL or CL anytime soon?. By Poch identifying these two competitions as his only goals, he himself has set expectations among players and supporters alike unrealistically high imo. By dismissing the more realistic targets of the domestic cups, he has given unnecessary hostages to fortune. We need to win a trophy, any trophy, if we want to continue our evolution as a club. He might think they are immaterial, but they are important stepping stones to greater success for both players and supporters.
 
Pirate55 said:
With all the financial constraints on us, does anyone on here realistically think we are going to win the PL or CL anytime soon?. By Poch identifying these two competitions as his only goals, he himself has set expectations among players and supporters alike unrealistically high imo. By dismissing the more realistic targets of the domestic cups, he has given unnecessary hostages to fortune. We need to win a trophy, any trophy, if we want to continue our evolution as a club. He might think they are immaterial, but they are important stepping stones to greater success for both players and supporters.
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I think we are good enough to win CL as it's a knock tourney, and good enough to capitalize on a year when the doped clubs are in a transition period.
Problem is I don't think the players believe.
 
DeanoAustin said:
From reading his book, I’d be surprised if it’s “Im off” because he criticized Walker for not sucking it up and saying nothing until the end of the season. And Walker didn’t even make it public he wanted out. It’d be hugely hypocritical if he effectively made it public with so much still to play for.

Likewise he does seem to have a good relationship with Levy.

That said, it’s Tottenham so I’m expecting us to lose the next 4 games and see him unveiled as Wenger’s replacement at the end of May.
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I think the book holds the clue. He did the same thing when we lost to West Ham away last year. He let the players think he might leave, because he was so annoyed that we lost that game. I can see why - he obviously prepares the team to hit top form at this point in the season and the limp defeat to West Ham made him think it wasn’t anything to do with tactics or conditioning, it’s the players getting too comfortable at always being protected.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is something similar. Again, we’re prepared to be in top form. These same players absolutely murdered United on the same pitch 2 months ago. I think he’s saying he isn’t always going to be there to protect them and they need to start taking responsibility.

Just because he’s admitted he did it last season, I think it’s that rather than money. But it could be he’s making a power play to say he needs more money to build a squad that can compete for trophies, because he’s taken the club as far as he can doing it this way. Either way, I think something snapped in the club this weekend. You could see how utterly fudged off Dele was. You can see it in Poch’s comments. I’m not surprised Vorm said the dressing room was a mess. I think we are at a crossroads. Either these players are going to harness it and use it to take that final step, or they won’t be the players that are tasked with doing it anymore.
 
glasgowspur said:
I think we are good enough to win CL as it's a knock tourney, and good enough to capitalize on a year when the doped clubs are in a transition period.
Problem is I don't think the players believe.
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Its a knockout tournament that is over two legs which makes it less likely of you beating the best teams in the latter rounds. You'd have to get a very fortunate draw. Maybe one of the 'doped clubs' would be in a transition period, but they arent all collectively going to be at the same time. We dont even look like we have the belief to win an FA Cup, let alone the CL....
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I think the book holds the clue. He did the same thing when we lost to West Ham away last year. He let the players think he might leave, because he was so annoyed that we lost that game. I can see why - he obviously prepares the team to hit top form at this point in the season and the limp defeat to West Ham made him think it wasn’t anything to do with tactics or conditioning, it’s the players getting too comfortable at always being protected.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is something similar. Again, we’re prepared to be in top form. These same players absolutely murdered United on the same pitch 2 months ago. I think he’s saying he isn’t always going to be there to protect them and they need to start taking responsibility.

Just because he’s admitted he did it last season, I think it’s that rather than money. But it could be he’s making a power play to say he needs more money to build a squad that can compete for trophies, because he’s taken the club as far as he can doing it this way. Either way, I think something snapped in the club this weekend. You could see how utterly fudged off Dele was. You can see it in Poch’s comments. I’m not surprised Vorm said the dressing room was a mess. I think we are at a crossroads. Either these players are going to harness it and use it to take that final step, or they won’t be the players that are tasked with doing it anymore.
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I think you’re spot on. This feels like a watershed moment for us. Everyone is hurt and annoyed by Saturday in a way I haven’t seen before.
 
harr1984 said:
Its a knockout tournament that is over two legs which makes it less likely of you beating the best teams in the latter rounds. You'd have to get a very fortunate draw. Maybe one of the 'doped clubs' would be in a transition period, but they arent all collectively going to be at the same time. We dont even look like we have the belief to win an FA Cup, let alone the CL....
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I think this is the year where it could have been possible. The big clubs (Barca, Real, Munich) aren’t as strong as normal, the Dippers turned City over and there isn’t much else in the competition.

The fact the Dippers have a good shot at it says it all. We murdered them for all but 45 mins this season.

That said, you’re right. If we were in Liverpool’s position, would we brick the bed?
 
harr1984 said:
Its a knockout tournament that is over two legs which makes it less likely of you beating the best teams in the latter rounds. You'd have to get a very fortunate draw. Maybe one of the 'doped clubs' would be in a transition period, but they arent all collectively going to be at the same time. We dont even look like we have the belief to win an FA Cup, let alone the CL....
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And yet one of Liverpool or Roma will be in the final this year, and may well win it. I wouldn't say either are beyond our level. We'd need a bit of luck along the way, but it's not beyond the realms for me.
 
harr1984 said:
Its a knockout tournament that is over two legs which makes it less likely of you beating the best teams in the latter rounds. You'd have to get a very fortunate draw. Maybe one of the 'doped clubs' would be in a transition period, but they arent all collectively going to be at the same time. We dont even look like we have the belief to win an FA Cup, let alone the CL....
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I honestly think that in this moment in time there is no outstanding team we can't beat in a knock out contest.
Barca, RM, bayern and utd are all aging teams on the decline.
City and PSG are fragile.
This won't last for long obviously, the big 4 will rebuild and the other two will improve, but in the 3 to 4 seasons, yes I think it's possible.

The league is different, next will be interesting. New managers at Chelsea and arsenal, Pep going all out for CL, Jose and klopp needing to win league to keep their jobs. All we can do is position ourselves to take advantage of any slip ups.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I think you’re spot on. This feels like a watershed moment for us. Everyone is hurt and annoyed by Saturday in a way I haven’t seen before.
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I think our CL exit was a bit similar. The players were gutted after that as they knew then, as they do now, that Spurs had more than a good chance to go all the way. The players knew after the Juve game they were better than them but couldn't get it done. That was a body blow.

After turning Utd over earlier in the season the players all knew that with the right attitude and application they could easily do it again. That attitude and application was missing after the utd equaliser. Their utter dispondancy stems from their realisation they let themselves down IMO. That semi final was another hard blow and if we lose our next match it might be the knockout punch.

CL qualification or not will be a watershed moment for the club. Failure wil mean a complete capitualisation from an very advantageous position. Strong mentaility is one of the recurring themes in Poch's interviews and how well we bounce back now could have lasting repurcussion for the club.

Personally I believe we will do it as I believe in Poch and this group of players. They have a much stronger character to those Spurs teams that have gone before even if they do have the odd wobble every now and then.
 
Seedy Ron said:
And yet one of Liverpool or Roma will be in the final this year, and may well win it. I wouldn't say either are beyond our level. We'd need a bit of luck along the way, but it's not beyond the realms for me.
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It never is really, but 9 times out of 10 it's self-inflicted wounds with Spurs. Saturday being a case in point.
 
Seedy Ron said:
And yet one of Liverpool or Roma will be in the final this year, and may well win it. I wouldn't say either are beyond our level. We'd need a bit of luck along the way, but it's not beyond the realms for me.
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So you think we would have beaten City over two legs? Liverpool still have a pedigree in tournaments, we dont....
 
Mulletperm said:
My concern is how many of our key players are going to hang around in this 'evolution' period.

Players ultimately want two things.
  • To win trophies
  • To earn lots of money
We have several players who are fully aware that they can go to clubs where they are guaranteed these things. So the question is, how long are those players going to give this evolutionary stage?

Eriksen is 26, Harry will be 25 this year and while that is comparatively young I honestly can't see them hanging around for another 2 or 3 years waiting for us to win things.

We are obviously miles ahead of where we were several years ago, but we really do need to be taking that next step sooner rather than later.
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I said similar a couple of seasons ago and got shouted down by some, we are now two seasons on and we are still saying/thinking we are getting closer to winning. Players WILL not stick around IF we keep failing to win a trophy, look at Eriksen he is good enough to play for ANY club and sooner or later one of those BIG clubs will come in for him ( and in all honesty i would not/ could not blame him if he decided he wants medals to show for his talent.

harr1984 said:
He might be asked the same questions, but his answer is wrong. All he has to say is We want to win the cup or we want to win all tournaments we are in - by dismissing the FA Cup publicly in its importance vs the League and CL it doesnt help anyone....
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Agree its as simple as that really.

glasgowspur said:
I think we are good enough to win CL as it's a knock tourney, and good enough to capitalize on a year when the doped clubs are in a transition period.
Problem is I don't think the players believe.
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Hence my saying we/they need to develop a winners mentality and they will ONLY get that by winning something.
 
billyiddo said:
What pedigree in tournaments does this Liverpool side have?
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Liverpool as a club have a pedigree in the CL, but fair enough this very current side doesnt. But I do think that history helps, makes it easier for the players to believe they can do it when pulling on the shirt than it is when putting on a Spurs shirt....
 
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