Yeah I can see how its all got a bit mixed up there....Ok thought it was still a discussion about the current team/manager
Yeah I can see how its all got a bit mixed up there....Ok thought it was still a discussion about the current team/manager
FACT: We have won three of our last 7 semi-finals:
2017 - Lost
2015 - Won
2012 - Lost
2010 - Lost
2009 - Won
2008 - Won
2007 - Lost
I think its a travesty. I think it was a bloody travesty Leicester won the league ahead of us! But other than that Nayim, I hold my hands up and say good post....
Yeah I saw your post about selective stats and definitely agree how stats can be manipulated to suit. But lets be honest the FA Cup is a hell of a lot more prestigious than the League Cup and we've lost the last seven of them which isnt good for a club with our history in the competition....FACT: We have won three of our last 7 semi-finals:
2017 - Lost
2015 - Won
2012 - Lost
2010 - Lost
2009 - Won
2008 - Won
2007 - Lost
Yeah I saw your post about selective stats and definitely agree how stats can be manipulated to suit. But lets be honest the FA Cup is a hell of a lot more prestigious than the League Cup and we've lost the last seven of them which isnt good for a club with our history in the competition....
Well for all those who insist on seeing it that way, it's also true that all bad runs come to an end sooner or later. As from this season I trust!Yeah I saw your post about selective stats and definitely agree how stats can be manipulated to suit. But lets be honest the FA Cup is a hell of a lot more prestigious than the League Cup and we've lost the last seven of them which isnt good for a club with our history in the competition....
Flatter to deceive not in general - but when it matters, the big games ie semis or in this case knockout stage of the CL. Real Madrid didnt look great in the groups but when it comes to the games that matter they up their game. No Im not comparing us to them thats just an example. Losing seven semi finals must of been over a period of a decade or longer Im guessing? Thats a crazy stat, we need to rectify that. You're absolutely right about learning from our experience in the CL, Ive no doubt we will be stronger for that come next season assuming we are there.
But this constant 'perspective' comment bugs me. I dont see anyone ranting that we should be winning this that or the other, simply those who are picking at the bits that have gone wrong. We have aspirations to win things, with our squad its a travesty that we have won nothing under Poch to date in what is his fourth season - and the reason that we havent is these small matters that people are bringing up and they are the difference between winning something and for the umpteempth season having nothing to show for our efforts. Its not perspective, noone is demanding anything but its the realism of what is required if we want to achieve what we believe we have the capability of doing....
To take you head on over this perspective thing.But this constant 'perspective' comment bugs me. I dont see anyone ranting that we should be winning this that or the other, simply those who are picking at the bits that have gone wrong. We have aspirations to win things, with our squad its a travesty that we have won nothing under Poch to date in what is his fourth season - and the reason that we havent is these small matters that people are bringing up and they are the difference between winning something and for the umpteempth season having nothing to show for our efforts. Its not perspective, noone is demanding anything but its the realism of what is required if we want to achieve what we believe we have the capability of doing....
To take you head on over this perspective thing.
First, since the departure of Ramos we have not prioritised the domestic cup competitions. Whether you agree with that or not, it offers an inescapable perspective on why we have not won either of those competitions. Indeed to have reached three SFs in the FA Cup and two finals in the League Cup since then is in my book a decent return, all things considered. Secondly, there is no way you can just set aside the reality that we are up against clubs that can throw hundreds of millions more at the problem than us. They bring in the world's best coaches and flood their squads with some of the world's top players. Whichever way you look at it, that makes the challenge that much harder for the rest. You can cite Leicester until you are blue in the face but there's no getting away from the fact they are the exception that proves the rule: Big Money Buys Big Trophies. Having said all that I take your point that it's perfectly fair to identify where we are going wrong and suggest where we could improve. We are still on a long journey and we are still learning and improving as we go along.
But despite the odds it feels as though a trophy is not too far away. Meantime, trophy or no trophy, I will continue to enjoy watching one of the most exciting clubs in Europe.
Agree with all of that, and Im sure everyone else does - which is why the 'have perspective' thing bugs me. Noone has said any different to what youre saying, but if anyone dares be critical of any specific thing and you get the standard lecture of where we are, where we are going, have perspective blah blah. Everyone knows all this already, that doesnt mean you cant highlight the specifics of what mistakes the coach has made, how we need to better ourselves to take that final step and actually win trophies rather than just being in the mix.To take you head on over this perspective thing.
First, since the departure of Ramos we have not prioritised the domestic cup competitions. Whether you agree with that or not, it offers an inescapable perspective on why we have not won either of those competitions. Indeed to have reached three SFs in the FA Cup and two finals in the League Cup since then is in my book a decent return, all things considered.
Secondly, there is no way you can just set aside the reality that we are up against clubs that can throw hundreds of millions more at the problem than us. They bring in the world's best coaches and flood their squads with some of the world's top players. Whichever way you look at it, that makes the challenge that much harder for the rest. You can cite Leicester until you are blue in the face but there's no getting away from the fact they are the exception that proves the rule: Big Money Buys Big Trophies.
Having said all that I take your point that it's perfectly fair to identify where we are going wrong and suggest where we could improve. We are still on a long journey and we are still learning and improving as we go along.
But despite the odds it feels as though a trophy is not too far away. Meantime, trophy or no trophy, I will continue to enjoy watching one of the most exciting clubs in Europe.
The only thing I picked up on is that we've lost last seven FA Cup semi finals - find that incredible, not moaning about it but a club of our stature should have a better record than that even when accepting there are bigger clubs around. Smaller clubs than us have made it to the Final during that period! But yeah, point taken with that example....In this instance the constructive criticism is a vague notion of not doing it in big games, which has hardly been substantiated.
Which gives the impression more of someone having a blind moan than actually something to talk about.
Hence the general "if you look past the end of your nose you will see its not really like that..." kind of response.
The movement thing I think is better now Son is a regular, and I think Moura will help massively with that too as he is a dribbler.Things I would criticise?
- I think we do have a lack of cutting edge/ruthlessness/chance conversion. We need to learn to get goals when in the ascendancy. We cant control games 400%, but we do control a high portion of matches without enough reward. Utd made several titles on the back of a couple of quick fire goals killing a game. Id like more of that.
- I think our movement becomes very predictable in attacking areas, and that we dont make enough runs past the attacker/through the lines to cause problems. We seem to shuffle the team around looking for a quick 1-2 opening - Id rather be a bit more direct/forceful at times.
- I do think Pochs subs could be done earlier. He seems very hesitant to change, and while I respect he has faith in the team I think there are many times when a more aggressive move, earlier, would be productive, and he just doesnt seem to do it.
- We can be slow starters in games. While we are very strong finishers (and if forced to choose, I choose to finish strong) we have many games where we just dont get going until the second half. Again, with the Utd example, they had so many games won at half time.
These are, I think, reasonable criticisms. Im sure there are many that would disagree - but as they are presented I am also sure there will be more engagement/debate than if I just bleated on about vague notions of us not being good enough in some trivial or abstract measure.
- I do think Pochs subs could be done earlier. He seems very hesitant to change, and while I respect he has faith in the team I think there are many times when a more aggressive move, earlier, would be productive, and he just doesnt seem to do it.
The bolded bit I couldnt agree with more, and I think is the thing that bugs me the most about Poch. Will be interested to see how he devlops with his subs, he appears to learn from things that dont work quickly. But I havent seen any real change in this area to date....
Compare that list to the West Ham one, after reading that Independent article.Things I would criticise?
- I think we do have a lack of cutting edge/ruthlessness/chance conversion. We need to learn to get goals when in the ascendancy. We cant control games 400%, but we do control a high portion of matches without enough reward. Utd made several titles on the back of a couple of quick fire goals killing a game. Id like more of that.
- I think our movement becomes very predictable in attacking areas, and that we dont make enough runs past the attacker/through the lines to cause problems. We seem to shuffle the team around looking for a quick 1-2 opening - Id rather be a bit more direct/forceful at times.
- I do think Pochs subs could be done earlier. He seems very hesitant to change, and while I respect he has faith in the team I think there are many times when a more aggressive move, earlier, would be productive, and he just doesnt seem to do it.
- We can be slow starters in games. While we are very strong finishers (and if forced to choose, I choose to finish strong) we have many games where we just dont get going until the second half. Again, with the Utd example, they had so many games won at half time.
These are, I think, reasonable criticisms. Im sure there are many that would disagree - but as they are presented I am also sure there will be more engagement/debate than if I just bleated on about vague notions of us not being good enough in some trivial or abstract measure.
The movement thing I think is better now Son is a regular, and I think Moura will help massively with that too as he is a dribbler.
The bolded bit I couldnt agree with more, and I think is the thing that bugs me the most about Poch. Will be interested to see how he devlops with his subs, he appears to learn from things that dont work quickly. But I havent seen any real change in this area to date....
Just to reiterate something I've mentioned before: Poch has stated in his book he prefers not to bring subs on too early for a variety of reasons.
First because he believes it sends out the wrong message to the players being replaced. He fears it may affect their morale adversely and that this in turn could ultimately impact negatively on overall team spirit, something he is at pains to emphasise is one of his core values and a vital element to building a happy and successful squad.
Second, whilst he is not against the use of subs per se, he believes it is not always the best answer. He emphasises the need to stay calm, to believe in the players that are out there, that they will prevail in the end.
He argues that he evolved this philosophy through his experience as both player and manager at the highest levels. He admits he once used to get very angry as a player over team mates he felt should have been replaced.
So the bad news for those who get frustrated at his tardiness in using substitutes is, it's not about to change any time soon, so we'd better get used to it.
Re subs i think it's a couple of things, firstly up until recently we haven't really had much depth of quality in the midfield and attacking areas and secondly i think he backs/trusts the players on the pitch and any tactical switches made to get the job done rather than it being a case of not knowing how to change the game via a substitution.
Compare that list to the West Ham one, after reading that Independent article.
All valid observations btw.